I think I may have a clutch problem.

Post by **Brian** » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:32 pm

or.... why you do not put too much power through a live clutch!

Thanks Barry.

scbco · Post by **scbco** » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:41 pm

Nothing a bit of fencing wire and some gaffer tape cannot fix LOL

That is quite a well done effort.Better than my broken axle.
Regards
Steve

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:20 pm

THAT is a crying shame! Any idea as to exactly what brought this catastrophic failure about? At least it appears there will be some parts available for restoration purposes!

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:02 pm

And all that mess with a 4 cyl, what if it had been a 6cyl at 2500rpm.

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:43 pm

Wow, that's a scary sight!

What happened exactly? Did the clutch exploded?
Too much rpm? Too much load on the pto?

Post by **Brian** » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:34 pm

I have had a similar thing happen. A Super Major ploughing with a TS82 plough when suddenly it stopped. We towed it from the field to the farm workshop and split it expecting to find the centre rivets sheared on the drive plate. Instead we found the clutch had exploded. The driver said he heard nothing.

In this case, the flywheel has gone as well causing all the damage.

You can now see why I am very sceptical about putting more than 50hp through a Live Clutch.

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:47 am

Brian wrote:I have had a similar thing happen. A Super Major ploughing with a TS82 plough when suddenly it stopped. We towed it from the field to the farm workshop and split it expecting to find the centre rivets sheared on the drive plate. Instead we found the clutch had exploded. The driver said he heard nothing.

In this case, the flywheel has gone as well causing all the damage.

You can now see why I am very sceptical about putting more than 50hp through a Live Clutch.

Yes, a live clutch becomes then a dead clutch.

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:38 am

I'll try to be carefull...

What's the weakest part of the clutch? The springs?
Can this be reinforced?

How did Roadless solved this problem with their Ploughmaster?
I believe it had a dual clutch as well. Only the 590e was adjusted to 75 hp.
County's Super6 had a single clutch, so they had no problem, I guess.

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:13 am

Pascal wrote:I'll try to be carefull...

What's the weakest part of the clutch? The springs?
Can this be reinforced?

How did Roadless solved this problem with their Ploughmaster?
I believe it had a dual clutch as well. Only the 590e was adjusted to 75 hp.
County's Super6 had a single clutch, so they had no problem, I guess.

I have a Roadless book and it says that in March 1962 they build a prototype with a 590E engine and the transmission was modified by fitting stronger bearings in the gearbox, heavy duty rear axles and a 13 in. clutch. Not a word of a double clutch.
I have read somewhere that Ford approved the guarantee if the engine was set at 76 hp and Roadless was then not responsible for a transmission failure.

Post by **Brian** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:57 am

I do not think Roadless used the dual clutch, at least I cannot remember one. The ones we serviced had HD 11" or 13" clutches, some had sintered bronze lobed discs like the County range.

I work for an ex Roadless demonstrator repairing electronics, next time he phones me I will ask.

The live clutch was designed for a Major at 40hp, it would have normally had a 30% overload factor built in, The hp of the Power and Super reduced this.

Clutch heating became a problem and cracking in the aluminum housing caused us to change many of them.

There is no practical way of strengthening the clutch.

Emiel · Post by **Emiel** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:46 pm

the above is raising a question to me.

Are the new available clutches identical to the ones Ford build into their tractors or do these new units just fit into the tractors?

With material technology of today, it must be possible to manufacture a stronger clutch within the same design. I don't think it is a good idea from an economical view though.

Dandy Dave · Post by **Dandy Dave** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:11 pm

OOOoooowwwwwccccchhhhhhhh. That really hurts....

Instant scrap pile. Dandy Dave!

Daves rusty bits · Post by **Daves rusty bits** » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:42 pm

Was it a digger conversion? I know they can pull themselves apart if the front is well anchored. Either way it will need a spot of welding.........

Dandy Dave · Post by **Dandy Dave** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:29 pm

An old friend of mine told me that years ago he ran one of the first experimential hydraulic backhoes in the 50's that was attached to a wheel tractor. He said it was a Ford and kept breaking in the middle. Did it twice, and then I think a reinforcement frame was added. He also ran one of the first Bob Cat skid steer loaders. He said that the wheel centers would break and had to be reinforced for replacment on later models. Dandy Dave!

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:26 pm

I will be very carefull with my clutch, guys.

Frans · Post by **Frans** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:46 pm

Brian, can you ask if they where fitted in a Ploughmaster 6/4 ?

My 6 cyl roadless has a dual cluch for 38 years now, and its fitted with a 108 bhp 590e engine also for 38 years or was that just carefull driving.....

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:37 pm

This is one way to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq715-wS ... re=related

Post by **Brian** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:28 pm

That reminds me of the time I went to a farm in Cambridgeshire and in the yard was the cab of a Ford 6600 still attached to the rear axle, with what was left of the engine and tinwork beside it.
The driver had been towing a four wheeled ex RAF fuel bowser which had been turned into a water bowser. He got the full bowser stuck across a level crossing of the Newmarket to Cambridge railway line on the farm.
He was shunting backwards and forwards to try to get it free when suddenly the engine of the tractor was 1/2 mile down the track.
It was a twin track crossing, he was stuck between one set of rails when the train went passed on the other! If he had been able to move the bowser about a metre the train would have come into the cab.

super6954 · Post by **super6954** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:26 pm

Hi Guys I am thinking there is more to this than just clutch failure

.
I am curiouse to know what the frame is on the back of the tractor. I think this is all stress related to either lifting or maybe pulling from a winch or crane attachment and rough use with incorrect or seriouse lack of bracing.
over here in Canada it is common for Belarus tractors to do this and explode in this way. If the motor is reving and she goes out of line by splitting in half this is the result. Ive seen it many times on loader tractors where the designers got it wrong with brackets/ stresses and snap the bell housing.
I know one driver said he needed a change of underware when it happened to him bits went miles across the yard like this one

.
Regards Robert

essex pete · Post by **essex pete** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:19 am

Interesting on what Super 6954 Robert has to say. We had a 1955 Chaseside 500 that cracked out a chunk of gearbox where the side rail would have bolted on a normal tractor. That point was used to locate the gearbox to the loader chassis and the front of the engine suspended in thin air. Not sure why the engineers chose to do it that way? Most other loader and backhoe manufacturers using the Major skid retained the chassis side rails.

Post by **Brian** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:58 am

I have replaced gearbox housings on tractors with Horndraulic loaders when they broke the housings. I have also replaced many, many Live Clutch housings and plates due to cracking, in tractors with no loaders. We shall never know the story about that one.

super6954 · Post by **super6954** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:17 am

I guess its like Brian says we shall never know for definate . It seems funny that there was problems with the live drive housings breaking with out loaders. I wonder if it is anything to do with the different casting for the live drive box and it's stressed wrong or its not such a good quality casting to start with

.
Regards Robert

Post by **Brian** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:53 am

The gearbox housing did not fail without loaders,

it was the clutch cover, centre and bottom metal plates that cracked and failed. We did not get many Live Drives on loaders, they life averaged about a year on a loader with the constant use, some only managed six months and it was an expensive lump to replace.

super6954 · Post by **super6954** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:32 am

Thanks Brian
I get what you mean now. you are talking more of internal failure not the actual outer castings. I saw the live drive one in my friends Roadless power major after it blew up idling. it never smashed the bellhouseing but it was a wheel barrow full of scrap when he split it. I am suspicouse that the crank is bent as he seems to be saying about vibration in the motor that wasn't there before this happened, Did you ever find that happened in your experience with this type of clutch failure.
Regards Robert

Post by **Brian** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:36 am

No, the ones that I came across just blew the clutch to bits, I had never seen a flywheel fail like the one in the picture. Wonder if it could be an input shaft to the gearbox rather than the crank that bent.

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