Water pump overhaul

[porteous]

My 53 FMD fettling continues!

I was fitting the newly rebuilt dynamo (Original 1953 lucas C39), and noticed that the fan and fan boss had a lot of play, although no obvious water leaks. Should I:
A. Live with it.
B. use a rebuild kit
C. Replace the pump (Pumps in the UK are about twice the price of rebuild kits, and neither are over expensive.

One nice thing I am finding out is that I have a tractor which is almost all original parts, made in Jan/Feb 1953. The downside is that the more I look the more I see that might need work, although she runs just fine and everything works.

The plot thickens. Lots of the spare parts firms have this on their catalogue of parts:

Fordson Major Water pump

Compatibility:-


Ford New Holland
Fordson
Major, Power Major, Super Major


Replaces Manufacturer Part No:-


Ford New Holland
81411996, 81711727, 81711728, 81872211, DKN8501AB, E1ADKN8501A, E1ADKN8501B, E1ADKN8501C, E1ADKN8501N

Now the last four part numbers may be for different Major Water pumps over the models manufacturing life (I can't be sure because I don't have a spare parts catalogoe and I can't get into the ones on this site for some reason, the host server seems to be down )

Does anyone know if there really is a "one size fits all" pump out there, as this would seem to suggest?

[super6954]

Hi
For majors after engine serial no 142097 (stamped on the block) the repro pumps should fit, Ive never had a problem with them, before this number you have to re build if the casting is good . they changed the water passages and the new pumps don't fit the old block from my understanding.
So looks like you got to check your serial number to see where you are with it.
if its getting that loose I would do something with it. A pump or kit is a lot cheaper than a rad / fan and pump when it piles up and messes all the above up if your unlucky
Regards Robert

[porteous]

Ordered a new pump from Dunlop Spares this morning. Only £28 odd plus VAT and they say it will fit either block. We shall see.

[super6954]

Ordered a new pump from Dunlop Spares this morning. Only £28 odd plus VAT and they say it will fit either block. We shall see.

Hi Porteous
I just went through my pile of used blocks it looks like the difference is the shape of the gallery that runs up into the head from the water pump mounting flange. 2 blocks have an oval ish shaped hole and what looks to be an early block has a round hole thats not as big .
I tried my non genuine replacement parts pump gasket on both types of block. it looks like as long as the pump is machined right to the gasket it should work as the hole is surrounded by the gasket to seal it .
it looks like the new blocks have more flow to the head from the water pump.
I checked my power major and before parts book. Ford list different pump castings, so not sure if ford didn't want them swapped new for old. or they didn't realise the new would fit the old.
My junk I &T shop manual states the difference but maybe a proper ford book says they interchange new for old. Maybe someone with a proper Ford book can tell us this or have the replacement pumps been altered to fit what ever block casting a tractor has
Regards Robert

[BearCreek Majors]

So while we are on the subject, does anyone know if the newer pump is the same one used on the 590E 6 cyl?

Pat

[super6954]

Hi Pat
The pump should fit no problem the 6 cyl you have is the same block pattern as the major 4 cyl block. The 330 in my county 954 is the 2700 series and that pump doesn't cross over.
Just a thought here you wouldn't happen to know of a good crankshaft for this motor like yours that could find its way to Canada for sensible money , The one I have in my power majors at 30 already and 40 shells would drop right in its worn so bad .
Regards Robert

[Kim]

Hi super6954! This is just a thought about the undersize crankshaft. I had a Case tractor with a very bad rod journal and the machine shop doing the work spray welded the journal and turned it back to standard. It's been running like a top for over ten years now. The welding techniques available these days are amazing. It is a viable way to salvage a worn crank. Good luck!

[super6954]

Hi super6954! This is just a thought about the undersize crankshaft. I had a Case tractor with a very bad rod journal and the machine shop doing the work spray welded the journal and turned it back to standard. It's been running like a top for over ten years now. The welding techniques available these days are amazing. It is a viable way to salvage a worn crank. Good luck!

Hi Kim
Thanks for the info, I was aware of the welding There is a company in Winnipeg Manitoba that does it. My machine shop guy got me a quote for doing it, it was a $1000 6 years ago so bet its about $1500 now plus machining when welded .

We tend to get royally adjusted with a big screwdriver for this stuff in Canada . Thats why I was hoping to find a salvageable used one in Canada or the U.S.A that was good or would take a grind
Regards Robert

[BearCreek Majors]

Hi Robert, I had rod journal welded on one of my cranks as well by a shop in Green Bay. I was quite leery about it, but the kid told me this machine shop had been welding up diesel cranks for years and the shop he worked for never had a bad one. That was only one journal and I believe the cost was maybe $50 dollars less than a new crank, I’d have to guess the cost to do all the rod journals would be horribly expensive.
But I am quite sure I ran across someone selling new cranks for the six’s a while ago, probably the same place that is making the Major units, I’ll do some digging to see if I can stumble across them again. Maybe Agriline can give you a lead.
As far as good used…..we are on the wrong side of the pond! I still need the whole rocker assembly for mine as well, I think the assembly from a D series will work but I’ll be dammed if I can find one of those ether. The 1000 series looks all wrong, but the rocker ratio on the 800/900 series looks like it may work. I’m going to have to check the cam lobe lift on this motor, the D series in my Super six and the 800/900 series to see what I can cobble together, luckily it will be much simpler not having to use the decompressor setup.
When I win the lottery I’ll run over there, fill up a couple cargo containers full of goodies and ship them back here. Do you think Brian would notice if Dotty went missing???

Pat

[super6954]

Hi Pat
If I can think where I found it there is a marine company some where in the states that had a web site stating differences in the 330s and they had 90 years of different used parts for motors I bet they have both our parts we want .
I got spare rockers and cover here for my 330 but they are industrial ones from an early combine and different to my ones in the truck motor thats in the power major tractor, I believe. Maybe they are what you need The sad part is I had an old crank and dumped it before I came to Canada in 2000 as I thought I didnt need it then . if I find this company again i'll let you know too .
I bet these rockers are the same in the major tractors as they had 2 types over the production and its only the shafts that are different.
Well I guess we are off topic a good way now so we should maybe start a topic our selves , if you could post A picture of your rockers in a new topic I'll see if my spares look like yours and see what we could work out would fit
Regards Robert

[porteous]

[quoteI just went through my pile of used blocks it looks like the difference is the shape of the gallery that runs up into the head from the water pump mounting flange. 2 blocks have an oval ish shaped hole and what looks to be an early block has a round hole thats not as big .
I tried my non genuine replacement parts pump gasket on both types of block. it looks like as long as the pump is machined right to the gasket it should work as the hole is surrounded by the gasket to seal it .
it looks like the new blocks have more flow to the head from the water pump.
I checked my power major and before parts book. Ford list different pump castings, so not sure if ford didn't want them swapped new for old. or they didn't realise the new would fit the old. ]

I suspect the current pump has been engineered to fit all the blocks, it certainly shares part numbers with the A,B and C pump numbers. The difference betwen my 1953 blocks and later ones seems very small.

[porteous]

Works just fine. The only real problem I had was that the nuts holding the fan and pulley on just would not engage with the holes in the new pump. Eventually took the pump off again and found that the holes in the pump pulley and fan blade needed reaming out since the holes in the new pump were a fraction further out from the centre of the shaft (Opening the holes from 8.3 mm to 8.8, plus a little work with a rat tail file worked fine. Bench assembled and put the whole lot back in as one lump. Works just fine.

[super6954]

Hi
Glad it worked for you Ive never had the problem with the bolts not going in the fan though, maybe there are different quality ones around . I think mine are Vapormatic supplied here in Canada by A&I parts. The head set I got the other day was in a Vapormatic packet with A&I part no stuck on it .
Regards Robert