identify the tractor type

[TimMarquee]

Hey taff,

It could be a number of things! My FPM ran for a bit when I first got it and all of a sudden it died. I sent the pump off to Bob Beck (highly recommend him) and he completely rebuilt it as he found it was U/S. However, I’d check that you don’t have an air blockage, maybe pull the air intake pipe off of the intake manifold and try starting. You could also have an injector problem, even one injector down will cause the engine to either not start, start and be lumpy/knocking, or indeed fire up and then die immediately. If you have diesel coming up to the injectors it’s unlikely to be a fuel supply issue. Injectors can easily be checked by someone like Bob Beck, but can obviously add expense to diagnosing whether it’s the pump or the injectors.

My money is on your pump, but I’m only an ex-recovery man and have limited knowledge on fuel systems (I used to drive a recovery truck rather than do roadside fixes!)

Could also be worth checking your injection timing, although unlikely but relatively easy and quick to do.

Cheers, Tim

[henk]

Taff,

I think your photo's are behind a login account so you can see them I don't.

[shepp]

Hi

If this is a tractor that has stood for some time, it is likely that there is an issue with the fuel rack sticking in the injection pump due to ingress of moisture. When the engine starts the governor diaphragm quickly moves the rack back against governor spring pressure to idling setting, the rack sticks and the engine stops.

Take off the pump side cover, which will either be a 4 bolt fitting (early tractors) or an 8 bolt fitting (later tractors). You will see the pumping elements and the pump control rack. Liberally spray the control rack and the elements with either a good penetrating oil or WD40, and the bushes at each end of the control rack.

When the engine is not running the rack moves under governor spring pressure to maximum governed speed setting, this is why these engines always start so well, when the engine starts the vacuum diaphragm moves against the governor spring to move the control rack to the engine running position which is dependant on the throttle lever position.

Operate the fuel shut off lever backwards and forwards, you should see the rack moving from maximum fuel to zero fuel position, keep spraying the rack and elements and the bushes at either end of the rack whilst moving the fuel shut off lever backwards and forwards. Do this many times until everything is freely moving.

When the rack moves freely start the engine. Take off the pigtail cambox overflow pipe and union and with a pump type oil can full of clean engine oil spray the pump elements and rack with oil .
Empty the full oil can over the elements and rack and allow the surplus to overflow of of the cambox drain hole. Do this again with another full can of oil to ensure that the cambox us thoroughly flushed whilst keeping the engine running. Refit the pump side cover and when the oil drain off hole stops running refit the banjo bolt and pigtail pipe.

This should sort the problem. Let us know how you go on.

[taffdavies]

Thank all for the info, must wait now until lockdown is lifted. Tractor is on a caravan site and site is in lockdown. Again THANKS for the info can't wait to try.

[taffdavies]

Sheppard,
Caravan site open and working on the tractor. Have taken off the side plate (8 bolts) to find that the shaft was siezed solid, have sprayed with copious amounts of wd40 and using screw driver managed to get shaft moving, took off the box end covering end of shaft and found it full of gunk. stll working shaft with screw divers - much easier to move but I do not think it is loose enough. At the front end (as opposed to the end with cut off lever) there is a "vessel" into which the shaft goes with two pipes fixed to it, should we take this vessel off to check for more gunk.
Now the silly question - where is the pigtail and banjo bolt

[taffdavies]

[henk]

Best to remove this end too. You can remove the parts inside that house. There's a spring and a diaphragma inside to check. The spring is not a thight one.

[shepp]

Hi

Seems like you have found the problem. When the rack is free enough it should be possible to move it fully to the right against the pressure of a spring that is in the vessel you refer to and when you release the rack it should return easily fully to the left under spring pressure. The vessel is actually the governor housing and contains a diaphragm that is attached to the control rack. If you undo the 2 vacuum pipes and then the 4 retaining screws holding the governor housing to the pump and carefully lift it away you will see the soft rated governor spring inside and then the diaphragm. You can detach the diaphragm from the control rack to access where the rack slides in the front housing to apply more WD40. When the rack is free enough check there are no holes or splits in the diaphragm - if so fit a new one - and re-assemble onto the pump. On the end of the diaphragm is a small piston, this slides in a cylinder that is in the end of the governor housing which acts as a damper to smooth out the movement of the diaphragm and control rod. The diaphragm is made to move by vacuum effect from the 2 pipes that are connected to the inlet manifold. Check that the piston can slide freely in the cylinder and refit the governor housing making sure the piston has entered into the cylinder in the end of the housing. Refit the vacuum pipes.

The other end you have taken off contains the stop lever and internal assembly which acts on the end of the control rack to move it to zero fuel position to stop the engine. When this assembly is clean and free refit it. With everything now refitted it should be possible to move the control rack fully to the right through the opening against the pressure of the spring in the governor housing, and when released the rack should move freely and smoothly back to the left. When the stop lever is operated you should see the control rack moving fully to the right against spring pressure to zero fuel position to stop the engine, and when you release the stop lever the rack should move fully to the left again by the spring effect.

On the face of the pump to the right near to the drive coupling and under the cover plate that is held by the 8 bolts there should be a banjo bolt - which is a hollow bolt - which holds a pipe onto the face of the pump, usually this pipe performs a circle before the end points downwards. It is possible that the pipe may have broken off leaving just the union. This pipe acts as an overflow for the pump cambox, there will be a certain small amount of diesel leakage from the pumping elements and this pipe and bolt allows this to leak from the pump and keep the fluid level in the cambox at a constant correct level. This is the bolt I refer to, remove this and with the engine running pump 2 oil cans full of oil into the pump through the opening that the plate covers and allow it to drain out through the hole where the banjo bolt goes. This will hopefully flush out most of the debris/unwanted fluid in the cambox and replace it with clean oil. If everything is OK refit the bolt and pipe or pipe union and the cover plate, new gaskets are available online just google Simms injection pumps to find a supplier.

Good luck!

[taffdavies]

I am having trouble with these photos.

Try to copy and paste link below into search bar.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/8JyyABbc9N2WdN3EA

[Billy26F5]

You seem to have a bitsa engine. This makes everything more difficult, but that shouldn't be a problem.
First things first, give your tractor a thorough clean (make sure you cover the injector pump first), this will avoid potential dirt getting in and forcing you to do a large and expensive overhaul.
Could you find the serial number and several casting codes please? This will help as it removes potential problems from other tractors.
Here's the banjo and pigtail

yours looks fine.
Flexible fuel lines aren't particularly good and I would recommend changing to copper ones.
Your fuel filter does have bleed screws, but when bleeding try to remove all leaks, as otherwise it will be very difficult to prevent air getting in.
Hope your Major gets going fine!
Sandy

[taffdavies]

Hi Shepp

Have dismantled the diaphragm vessel and found corrosion on the steel plate, the diaphragm found no holes will reassemble having cleaned all the bits and interior.
A further query, can you define how easy to move the stop-go shaft, does it need to be moved with finger pressure only, it needs small screwdriver as fulcrum for easier movement-finger very stiff.

[Billy26F5]

The rack should move by finger pressure easily. The spring should return it easily as well. If not, the governor won't work very well and there's risk of over reving.
Sandy

[taffdavies]

Thanks for the info, any magical ELIXCER to use to ease the shaft inside the bushes or is it a lot of pushing the shaft back and fore. Can the shaft be taken out?
Gary

[shepp]

Hi

Can the shaft be taken out? - definitely NO!

The pump is set up on a specialist expensive machine which involves the setting of the pump element control forks which are attached to the control rack by pinch bolts. This setting up procedure determines the amount of fuel delivered by each element to a set specification which must be the same for all the elements.

Billy is right about the freedom needed for the rack, it must move easily under finger pressure to the right against the governor spring, and when released it must move under the action of the spring pressure smoothly back to the left.

Obtain a fine grade sheet of emery paper and with the rack fully to the left carefully clean up the right hand end of the control rack which slides into the right hand bush when the rack is moved to the right - place a piece of cloth under the rack to catch any fine droppings and then wipe the end of the rack clean. Give it a good spray then move the rack to the right and repeat the procedure on the left hand end of the rack. It might work better if you use a dedicated penetrating oil spray, WD40 although it lubricates is really a water dispersant.

I am afraid you will have to persevere with manual effort and penetrating oil/WD40/oil until the rack is free enough. Whatever you do do not disturb the element control forks attached to the rack, if this happens the pump will have to come off and be sent to a diesel injection specialist and set up to specification again. Don't forget to flush the pump out as described previously with at least a couple of oil can fulls of clean engine oil

Good luck!

[Billy26F5]

I would only use engine oil and Diesel in the pump, no penetrating oil/WD-40 as it might cause trouble later. Do make sure NO dirt gets in as it's likely to write off the pump and replacements are £600+.
Pump overhauls are a similar price as the equipment for calibrating is very expensive.
Sandy

[shepp]

I think you will be safe to use WD40 or a penetrating oil, just make sure you flush the pump well afterwards by using a pump type oil can and squirting new engine oil over the pump elements and the control rack and allow it to drain into the cambox and out through the hole where you will have removed the banjo bolt and pigtail pipe. Light fluid in the cambox will rise to the top of the new oil being pumped in and will drain out through the drain off hole. Empty 2 can fulls slowly whilst the engine is stopped, let it rest for a while then again another 2 whilst the engine is running. You will be able to see when the oil draining out looks clean. I think you will find that carefully cleaning up the ends of the rack with a very fine grade emery paper will do the trick, you can also clean the ends up where they stick out into the governor housing and into the fuel shut off housing. I have come across this issue several times over the years with tractors that are not used much and dealt with them as described and there have never been any subsequent issues.

[taffdavies]

Both,
I have emeried both ends of shaft and removed the both ends - governor and stop /go end. The shaft has slight up and down movement at both ends so there should be free side to side movement, there is movement, but a lot of force needed when using fingers alone. Would this be due to the "tangs" connecting to the cy.inder shafts.
Apologies for being a novice, NOT a mechanic and 80 year old fingers are not really strong.
Your help much appreciated.
Gary

[Billy26F5]

This appears to indicate binding of plungers and barrels, and is therefore a specialist job. Before you take the pump to the specialist try turning it to see if the plungers move well, as they might not pump very well either. There should be free movement of the rack and no play in the bushes, the force required without the governor should be next to nil. Make sure you clean all the fuel system thoroughly.
Sandy

[shepp]

Hi Gary

I cannot see any issue with the pumping elements as they are constantly full of diesel so there should be no corrosion affects there. In addition you say the tractor performed well before it was stored.

Turn the engine by hand using the fan and belt and check the effort needed to move the rack at different points of engine rotation.

If the rack is as free as you say it is I would re-assemble the governor by refitting the spring, clean the little piston on the end of the diaphragm and oil it and refit the housing making sure the piston has entered the cylinder which is held in the end of the housing by a locknut. You can re-assemble the spring and diaphragm into the housing and then offer the assembly up to the pump and slot the peg on the diaphragm into the hook on the end of the control rack. Oil the stop assembly and refit that. Operate the stop lever which has the cable attached to it by hand, there will be a certain amount of effort needed to do this it will not be loose and free. You should see the rack moving fully to the right. Release the stop lever and observe if the rack moves smoothly back to the left. Do this several times and if everything moves OK then ensure that the vacuum pipe unions into the governor housing are tight so there are no leaks and also the pipe unions at the inlet manifold. Flush the pump with a couple of oil cans of clean engine oil as described before, bleed the fuel system and start the engine with a small amount of throttle. Operate the throttle with the engine running and observe the action of the rack. If everything works OK pump another can of oil over the pump elements and springs and refit the side cover. When the cambox has found its correct oil level refit the banjo bolt and drain-off pipe.

Early injection pumps had square ends where the rack slotted into the pump casing at each end, these tended to be a bit jerky in operation and also prone to sticking so the ends were modified to a round shape.

Let us know how you get on.

[taffdavies]

Hi both,
It would seem that a further problem is that there was a considerable layer of gunge in fuel tank. Have drained the tank and washed out the muck (most of it). Now the job of bleeding system, the lift pump is working very slowly. Would it be ok to raise the compression lever and prime system by operating starter motor?
Yes I know I am not the best diesel mechanic, not even poor mechanic, so all help is really appreciated. So far can't get fuel to fuel filter, glass sight bowl is clear as crystal now, surprising what a tank clean will do.
Gary OAP

[Billy26F5]

I would look at the pump first as you only get one pump for every revolution of the camshaft and you'll be pumping quicker by hand. The decompressor is never ment to be used with the starter. Remove the six screws holding on the pump body on and examine the valves and diaphragm; it's quite possible that dirt is preventing a valve from closing fully. When you remove the body clean out the sediment bowl as well, as that can reduce flow by being blocked. If none of this does it, check the fuel filter.
Sandy

[shepp]

Hi Gary

Yes take off the pump sight glass held by the screw clamp and in the pump bottom retained by the rubber sealing washer you will find a fine mesh gauze. Take the sealing rubber out and the gauze and see if that is blocked, give it a good cleaning off in petrol. If it was blocked refit it after cleaning and clean the the glass and refit that and the sealing washer and see if you can get fuel to the filter now. Be aware that if the camshaft is at a position where the peak of the cam lobe that operates the lift pump is on the lift pump internal operating lever then you will get no effect from the hand priming lever, turn the engine by hand one revolution and try again. If your fuel filter head is the single bleed screw type this will be on the output side of the filter so if the filter is blocked you will get no fuel to the bleed screw, so probably best to fit a new fuel filter anyway especially if you have found so much muck in the tank. If you have done all this and still no fuel to the filter then remove the lift pump and unscrew the six screws and check the diaphragm for splits, also as Billy says check the valves are clean and free. Your problem has got to be in one of these areas!

[taffdavies]

Hi both,
The top filter in glass bowl cleaned, new fuel filter but did not know about position of engine to facilitate pumping. Will check pump tomorrow, and replace the stop start connector which snapped.

Last couple of days a little problematic, yesterday the stay connector on the rear axle of my 24 year old disco1 snapped, giving a strange movement of the vehicle. £120 worst off this morning.
Again thanks for the help. Will let you now if the tractor will again start.
Fingers crossed.
Gary

[taffdavies]

Have to recon pump, cylinders stuck cannor free

[Billy26F5]

There's a repair kit available from most aftermarket suppliers. It includes the diaphragm, valves and mounting gasket.
Sandy