Timing issue/Flywheel install

[SvendH]

Just cheked on my Super.
With cyl1 on firing stroke and flywheel pointer at 23degrees bf TDC Both valves are closed,with loose rockers

[Billy26F5]

The intake valve closes a few degrees after BDC compression stroke, keeping the cylinder sealed for nearly a full turn of the crankshaft. I think your flywheel dowels are missing, try this and see if it works.

Try getting the engine on TDC then turn it through 337 degrees clockwise from the front and see if the pump looks ok for timing. Then see if you can lower the sump and see what the flywheel is up to, I'm afraid you probably will have to remove the flywheel; when you refit it get the engine on TDC and get the TDC mark on the flywheel in line with the inspection cover. Do remember to do this so that you check the pump when cylinder no. 1 is on compression (all timing marks line up), the flywheel can also be fitted when the timing marks are exactly opposite (compression TDC cylinder no. 4). Just to be sure you get the pump fitted the right way round, the spill mark should be lining up when the coupling clamp bolt is below and away from you as in your second pic.
Sandy

Sandy

[JDisanza]

Thank you. Back to work for me. It'll be awhile but I'll be back with my findings.
BTW any help on getting an injection pump rebuilt in the US or maybe Canada? Not having any luck here in Maine.
Thanks

[John b]

You wouldn't be the first person to find out that your flywheel has been incorrectly installed. Just out of curiosity, did the engine run before? If all the timing marks line up ok and it is just the flywheel that is out it is alot quicker and saves a huge amount of work to remove no1 injector and use a DTI gauge to get tdc, use a timing disc on the crank to find 23° and put a new mark on the flywheel. If it ran before there should be no reason to think anything else is badly wrong with it, if it didn't however, as Sandy points out there may be other issues
John

[Emiel]

You wouldn't be the first person to find out that your flywheel has been incorrectly installed. Just out of curiosity, did the engine run before? If all the timing marks line up ok and it is just the flywheel that is out it is alot quicker and saves a huge amount of work to remove no1 injector and use a DTI gauge to get tdc, use a timing disc on the crank to find 23° and put a new mark on the flywheel. If it ran before there should be no reason to think anything else is badly wrong with it, if it didn't however, as Sandy points out there may be other issues
John

Hi,

If it were my tractor and I used it 20 years without problems, this would be my way forward.

If it was a new tractor to me, I wouldn’t want to take the risk and check for myself.

Regards emiel

[SvendH]

Thank you. Back to work for me. It'll be awhile but I'll be back with my findings.
BTW any help on getting an injection pump rebuilt in the US or maybe Canada? Not having any luck here in Maine.
Thanks
[/quote
Perhaps the pumpe isent as bad ad you think it is.
Take the sidecover off and check the pump elements move,the slidearm moves and springs back.pumpshaft turnes smooth asf.
If it doesent look too bad giv it a try.
See if it squirts diesel when engine is cranked without injecktorpipes fitted.
If it realey lookes bad try a good marine repairshop.Dont you have fishingboats (with small diesels) around Maine

[Billy26F5]

You wouldn't be the first person to find out that your flywheel has been incorrectly installed. Just out of curiosity, did the engine run before? If all the timing marks line up ok and it is just the flywheel that is out it is alot quicker and saves a huge amount of work to remove no1 injector and use a DTI gauge to get tdc, use a timing disc on the crank to find 23° and put a new mark on the flywheel. If it ran before there should be no reason to think anything else is badly wrong with it, if it didn't however, as Sandy points out there may be other issues
John

Hi,

If it were my tractor and I used it 20 years without problems, this would be my way forward.

If it was a new tractor to me, I wouldn’t want to take the risk and check for myself.

Regards emiel

I would do the same too.
Sandy

[JDisanza]

You wouldn't be the first person to find out that your flywheel has been incorrectly installed. Just out of curiosity, did the engine run before? If all the timing marks line up ok and it is just the flywheel that is out it is alot quicker and saves a huge amount of work to remove no1 injector and use a DTI gauge to get tdc, use a timing disc on the crank to find 23° and put a new mark on the flywheel. If it ran before there should be no reason to think anything else is badly wrong with it, if it didn't however, as Sandy points out there may be other issues
John

It did run ..exhaust so rich your eyes would tear 20 ft away, but I understand ,you make a good point. I guess I could proceed with getting the pump rebuilt and the injectors brought up to speed and see if I can it getting running properly. Somewhere on an improperly installed flywheel the right spot exists.
Thanks

[JDisanza]

Thank you. Back to work for me. It'll be awhile but I'll be back with my findings.
BTW any help on getting an injection pump rebuilt in the US or maybe Canada? Not having any luck here in Maine.
Thanks
[/quote
Perhaps the pumpe isent as bad ad you think it is.
Take the sidecover off and check the pump elements move,the slidearm moves and springs back.pumpshaft turnes smooth asf.
If it doesent look too bad giv it a try.
See if it squirts diesel when engine is cranked without injecktorpipes fitted.
If it realey lookes bad try a good marine repairshop.Dont you have fishingboats (with small diesels) around Maine

[JDisanza]

Thank you. Back to work for me. It'll be awhile but I'll be back with my findings.
BTW any help on getting an injection pump rebuilt in the US or maybe Canada? Not having any luck here in Maine.
Thanks
[/quote
Perhaps the pumpe isent as bad ad you think it is.
Take the sidecover off and check the pump elements move,the slidearm moves and springs back.pumpshaft turnes smooth asf.
If it doesent look too bad giv it a try.
See if it squirts diesel when engine is cranked without injecktorpipes fitted.
If it realey lookes bad try a good marine repairshop.Dont you have fishingboats (with small diesels) around Maine

Yes we do have diesel shops here,the trouble is it's a 60 year old pump off of a tractor that was uncommon here. The shop I took it to said it needed a cam which they could get but but not the bearings on the ends that were also needed. Also recommended replacing the rollers on the bottom the plungers which they couldn't get either.
I'll keep looking. There are a few on Ebay.
Thanks

[John b]

Personally i would get the injectors tested and get the pump timing correct before doing anything with the pump, there may be nothing wrong with it. If the engine was rebuilt with the flywheel in the wrong position it is doubtful the pump timing was set up properly anyway. I'm sure a few will disagree with me but if it runs with good oil pressure and no knocking (maybe do a compression test too) I would put a new mark on the flywheel and time it up properly with the injectors tested and set. I suppose it all depends on how much time/money you want to spend on it, there could be other issues, but it's just as likely you could spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours on something that doesn't need doing

[Billy26F5]

Personally i would get the injectors tested and get the pump timing correct before doing anything with the pump, there may be nothing wrong with it. If the engine was rebuilt with the flywheel in the wrong position it is doubtful the pump timing was set up properly anyway. I'm sure a few will disagree with me but if it runs with good oil pressure and no knocking (maybe do a compression test too) I would put a new mark on the flywheel and time it up properly with the injectors tested and set. I suppose it all depends on how much time/money you want to spend on it, there could be other issues, but it's just as likely you could spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours on something that doesn't need doing

Agree 100% John.
Sandy

[shepp]

Look on www.injectionpumps.co.uk for all parts for these Simms pumps, they have the bearings, they will probably post them to the States for you if you can find a local injection specialist to do the rebuild.

In timing up these engines number 1 cylinder is always taken as the front cylinder nearest the radiator. With a firing order of 1-2-4-3 I am just churning over what might be the effect of someone having set up the timing gears taking number 1 cylinder as the rearmost cylinder nearest the battery - it doesn't seem feasible that it could run and the timing marks would be out but other than that as everyone says the most likely cause is that the flywheel has been incorrectly installed without dowels

[Billy26F5]

In timing up these engines number 1 cylinder is always taken as the front cylinder nearest the radiator. With a firing order of 1-2-4-3 I am just churning over what might be the effect of someone having set up the timing gears taking number 1 cylinder as the rearmost cylinder nearest the battery

Very good point Shepp, and another one some of us forget about sometimes, it's not the only way cylinders are numbered but it is the way Fordson tractors are. Having said that I don't think it's the problem as the pics seem to show things in the right place apart from the flywheel.
Sandy

[shepp]

A simple way to test for an incorrectly installed flywheel is to remove the rocker cover and no 1 injector, then carefully insert a welding rod or similar through the injector hole to contact the piston, turn the crank gently by hand and watch the rod taking care that it does not get trapped as the piston rises and nears nears TDC, when the rod is stopped rising or rocking check if you can see the flywheel markings, turn back the crank slightly if necessary, if no markings then the flywheel has been installed incorrectly.

[Billy26F5]

For finding TDC you can also line up the timing marks on the gears, but from the pics we can already see that the flywheel is out of place.
Sandy

[Old52]

The intake valve closes following the intake stroke. When the piston is rising to TDC on the compression stroke, the intake valve is well closed, long before TDC....if you are seeing the intake valve still partially open at 23 BTDC, something is way off...

[JDisanza]

Thanks again to all for some great tips.