Hydralic pump Q.

[RH]

Morning again all,
The hydraulics on my old FPM seem a bit weak;
It works well enough with say a 3-point hayrake, (and the arms stay up ) but won't lift a round bale on the rear fork. It will start to lift, but cuts out before it is quite off the ground.
Bales won't be much over 1100 lbs I don't think.
Is it my hydraulic pump that is kaput, or another problem do you think?

Any suggestions appreciated!!

Richard.

[whirly]

This is just my experience and others may have more detailed information.

My 3pt will lift a 950# flail with no problems as is just sits about 2' back of the hitch point. It will even pick up a couple of skinny guys sitting on the flail. However, If I try to pick up a 1200# verge mower which sits 4' back the pressure relief valve blows. My estimate of the limit of the 3PTH is about 1100# (500Kg) at 24" (610mm) from the hitch point. If your round bail is much farther back than 24" then that may be the problem.

As I said YMMV

[oehrick]

Only had probems on the Super abt 30 yrs back Richard, when over a few weeks it would not lift the foreloader with decreasing loads in it, messed about with the DAR valve and noticed that when lifting the TPL arms (which had a concrete block on), when they came up to the top the normal 'farting' noise which both this and the 58 Major make when the cylinder bottomed - and which I have always assumed is the PRV blowing - was absent.

And so it came to pass that despite the orrible Staydri cab, the top cover eventually came off and the pump was exchanged for the one from the 'bitsa' of the time and lo all worked again Praise the Great Henry

May be a bit rough and ready but if you don't have enough pressure to audibly blow the PRV you might want to borrrow a 4000 psi clock and see how close to the 2200 psi you are developing, or pull the PRV in case it is not seating properly.

Hope it is a straight forward repair, ironically, I tripped over the old pump only this afternoon and thought 'I wonder what was wrong with it, praps I should have a look' before putting the casing into the 'ingot' box I keep for casting from - note I only went over to look at a couple of Chestnuts I'm intending to fell and am finding typing a bit uncomfortable after finding quite a good crop so have lots of little green hedgehog prickles stuck in me fingers - ouch !

[RH]

Thanks for your replies, Whirly and Rick.

Whirly,
This homemade fork sits very close, so the close side of the bale is only about 6" from the ends of the 3 pt arms.
As these bales are solid and 6 foot, I put fork on the FSM to try and it worked fine, so not just the mechanical fit.

Rick,
If the pump is leaking or whatever, can these be fixed? Also, I have two pumps from parts jobs on the bench. Is there a way to test a pump without installing it?
It would seem a pain putting pump in and finding it was no cop!
BTW, could part of my problem be that I have a small leak where the valve chest mounts?? Have to order a gasket.

Thanks again to both of you.
Note, I once tried to pick some cactus to bring home from the prairie. got down below the prickles and pulled, only to find that the brown hairy bit below prickles are Still prickles!!
Pal drove all the way home whilst I was busy sorting prickles with me knife.
Another note to Rick;
at least half of harvest still to do here. Many thousands of acres of grain uncut or in the swath, also ditto of first and second cut hay!
Have had snow, and dull morky days. Promising better weather at present and we need it! My laid oats are like seaweed fresh washed up....

[whirly]

If you're going to pull the top off the chest anyway, check the "O" rings on the connecting pipe. When I pulled mine, both "O" rings had flattened out with age and although they still seemed to carry enough pressure to blow the PRV we put new ones on the pipe.

[RH]

Wirly,

I had the valve chest off not too long ago and did the O-rings. Thanks for the suggestion though!
Been thinking about it;
As it lifts, it comes up so far then I hear a definite click and it stops. Think it must be the PRV opening. I will try it with a shim over the spring and see what happens.
It's not like it just powers out, it comes up, then a click, then no further travel...
I'll let you know what happens!

[oehrick]

What whirly said.

Its a gear pump and as it is gear driven off the PTO shaft I guess that is why we never tested it From what I recall there is a steel pipe in and out, both 'o' ring sealed and held in position by clamps, suction down to the strainer and delivery up to top housing, any of these seals or the pipe clamps could result in a leak although as it is sub.merged I doubt air in the suction is likely.

The pump has a pair of gears and their end clearance is fixed by the bearings which are dogbone / figure of 8 shaped and probably Meehanite or similar and the endplates (one of these being the bracket which mounts the pump) there are also some strange 8 or E shaped 'o' ring seals between end plates and brgs / body so the bolts holding these together loosening or the seals failing would loose pressure.

I think you need to get a clock on it first to save pulling that top cover again - the PRV on mine makes a distinct noise when the TPL it at end of stroke - does yours ??

Also, as you say it stops at the same point during the lift, if this is with nothing on the arms it makes me think there may be something jamming internally, praps in the draft control causing silly buggers? something I know even less about than the pump.

Sorry to hear about the state of harvest your way, soon be time to plough it all back in again

TTFN

[RH]

Rick,

Yes, when arms fully raised it makes a definite sound as it comes to a stop.
Nothing jamming anywhere because the position it stops at depends on load.
I put a shim on the PRV spring, as it hadn't any and it was much better, but not up to the FSM standard.
I think the PRV is the problem, as if I try and lift a heavy load with a fairly fast idle, it will not lift as high as it does on the lowest idle. This must be the PRV that gives this click /tick as it comes into play.
Would you suggest pulling the P-R valve and seeing how the seat looks??, Or, put another shim in there?! It's the later one with the ball bearing.

As an aside;
Exhaust manifold wet. Diesel. Does it just need some hard work? Only piddled about since I got it as it has had a few ailments.
Nort much of a plough, but I do have a 2 x14" Oliver I could have a go with. No hydraulics at present for my 'real' plough.

[oehrick]

I doubt it would hurt Richard, if you get a bit higher with a shimmed PRV it does sound like this may be where it is shedding oil but I've never had one apart, would check out the seat if you can see it.

Assuming they are the same pattern, trying the SM PRV in the PM and vice versa would confirm a fault if the problem followed the valve, although it wouldn't eliminate the seat being damaged.

Of course, you might have just detected a small black hole just under where you are testing it - OK i'll get me coat

May not be much direct help but a friend who designs and manufactures some impressive hydraulic plant for agriculture, oil, food & nuclear industries came out to Germany with me to try and solve a problem on a multi headed press, he asked that they didn't fire it up until we got there, took all the covers off then started it running and proceeded to go round feeling each valve in sequence and within a very few minuted stopped it, when I asked for why he indicated a proportional control valve as being most likely candidate, when I asked why he said feel it and the same valves on adjacent cylinders, it was very much warmer. Opening it up revealed a damaged spool seal, the lesson was, wherever you drop pressure in a hydraulic system you create heat - unfortunately when everything is up to working temperature this is much more difficult to detect, hence the cold start-up - something we used to great effect subsequently

[RH]

Rick,
I pulled the PRV out, and it has a ring of pits where it sits in its seat. Looks like it had sat with water/condensation in there. I cleaned up the valve a bit, ( No angle grinders) and put it back. Definitely better. Will try another shim, but if I had time I should remove the valve seat and do them both , like a valve job. ?? Does that sound plausible?....with polish not valve grinding paste.

Weather better, but after white frost it melts, and hardly a breath of air movement, so by the time it has dried off, it's night again!
Might get some straw baled though. Been turned twice!

[oehrick]

Dunno about lapping the valve back in Richard, a short burst of more aggressive grinding paste might get the pitting out with less contamination than lots of piddling with polish - there are apparently self disintegrating grinding compounds about which present far less risk than carborundum or scrapings off the backdoorstep mixed with a bit of dripping but while there is some doorstep left, I'm not planning on buying any

Sounds like you have located the cause but we really need a Brian or someone else experienced in sorting this job to point the way - trouble is he is probably tucked up in front of a roaring fire, pint in hand and laughing his socks off over at YewToob while Ann stuffs him with freshly baked pork pies

As for the weather, best you write and complain to Trump and ask him what he intends to do about their rain sneaking over your border un-asked

[RH]

Rick,
Dripping.....Pork Pies! I'd about kill for some! Have to mek me own over here. Mind, they com out very nice and I get a lot of help eating them!

We go to Canmore whenever we can, so's to have a good feed of steak and kidney pie, shepherd's pie or some such. Pub there has proper grub!

I do have various grades of lapping compound, so you may be right. Can always finish off with finer stuff. The spare valve I have, is different altogether, and has the ball in the nose, and lighter spring.

Do have two spare pumps though! and though one is the old type and one newer, they both seem in good condition, and FWIW, if I pour some oil in them, they push my thumb off the outlet when I turn them. (Don't know if that is a good test though)
Yes, where Is Brian?!?

What about this wet-looking exhaust manifold?? Does she need some proper work?

[58vintage]

Hi RH,

I had the same problem as you with black gunge coming out of the exhaust, mine was after a full rebuild where even the block water ways and rad were pro cleaned. I was just not maintaining a high enough running temp to insure a constantly clean burn. I fitted the hotter 82℃ thermostat instead of the 74℃ I had and gave her some good hard work on my 3 furrow Ransomes. She is now bone dry. I would say that I went for the hotter thermostat only because no matter what I did I couldn't attain running temp. If you can get to and maintain the correct temp maybe just try the couple of hours hard work.

[RH]

Thanks for your reply, 58-V.

I have an old 2- furrow I can hook it to, and will give it a try if we ever get harvest finished! I'll let you know how it goes. It seems to be slopping oil out of the injector rubbers as well. Don't understand that but maybe it just needs new ones. Seems to have plenty of power so a good working might help as you suggest.
Thanks again!

Richard.

[58vintage]

Just a thought after you give her a good hard workout, if she does smoke when not under load and low rpm, white or a light grey some numpty before you may have been playing with the fuel screw in the pump. Causing her to be unable to burn all the fuel she's getting and unburnt fuel tends to come out of the exhaust drain hole like sticky tar like black gunge.
Give her a good hard workout for a while though as lack of hard work can cause what I've been told is called the fordson dribble.
Regards,
James.

[RH]

Good morning James,

No smoke to speak of after start-up, but did give her a bit of a workout yesterday. Not as much as I would have liked, as conditions not good.
Dried her up a bit though.
Plough, though clean, would not 'slipe" and the soil stuck to the mouldboards very badly. The bit I had to plough is river bottom. Silt on top of clay and it stuck like glue.
5 yards and it was gummed up again. Also frost on surface had melted and I was cutting a rut with the land wheel.. Plough wheels all stuck up as well!

Gave up, but it showed me I need to get that seal done between gearbox and clutch housing... was pouring out!

[dukeyfox]

Hiya you Fordson fans, this is my first post as I only joined the other day having owned a Major Diesel for almost 20 years now and have hardly needed to put a spanner to it in all that time. I don't even know what year it is save to say it has the drive wheel on the offside which I use for a saw. I've been reading with some interest about people having difficulty with the hydraulic system working certain implements including log splitters, and that's my reason for posting. The splitter I bought some years ago; it has a two way ram on it and works perfectly well on my Case 1594. (The problem is that I have a mountain of wood that should have been split and dry stored months ago but hasn't been due to an on going starting problem with the Case.) Each time I try the splitter on the Major, the valve 'clicks off' which means I have to release the lift lever and re-set it again. In other words, the blade splits the log and then the lever needs to be re-set before I can bring the blade back up again. I can't understand why this happens. The pressure feed is from the valve at the left hand side of the seat and the return feeds directly into the filler opening on the back of the tractor. The hydraulics easily lift a tipper trailer with several tons of timber which I would suspect uses far greater pressure than the log splitter, but each time I put the log splitter on it clicks off and I have to release the lever from the 'free-flow' position and re-set it again in the open position. Such a great machine but she doesn't like the log splitter. Any ideas what can be causing this with the old lady? Rusty - yes, tatty - yes, like a moving scrap pile when I drive it? - yes, starts first time every time no matter what the weather? Hell yes! Best working tractor I have? - definitely.