4wd "conversion"

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Smokeyjoe
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4wd "conversion"

Post by Smokeyjoe »

Hello,

I would appreciate some thoughts on a possible 4wd conversion using a second back end and gearbox to be trailed behind a major and driven using the pto shaft. The idea would be to modify the pto drive unit on the trailed gearbox so a connection using ujs could be made to the pto output shaft of the front tractor. It would require the shaft of the rear gearbox to be extended and fitted with a spline and a new bearing and seal housing making for it to pass through. Then if the gearboxes were both matched to the same gear and both pto selectors were engaged the trailed unit should drive at the same speed as the front tractor...(I think).

Does anyone know if this has been done, or seems feasible? It seems to me that it should be possible, but the drive to the trailed unit would be achieved by powering the rear gearbox from a different end to normal, which I think would cause the gears to be applying force on the opposite side of the tooth to normal - would this be a problem?

I look forward to your thoughts, might be a ridiculous idea but if possible could make an interesting project.

Thanks,

Joe

blackbob
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by blackbob »

I'm trying to visualise it.. You would have the rear half facing forwards as normal, with your 'prop-shaft' going somehow under or alongside it, and connecting (perhaps via a short chain) to its pto stub?

Because any other way has to be very difficult to match rotation speeds/direction. Remember that 540 pto rpm is at something like 1200 engine rpm, so there is reduction gearing inside the transmission somewhere. And the pto shaft is also turning in the opposite direction to the engine?

You could have your two gearboxes 'back-to-back' with the 2 pto stubs connected together with a simple pto shaft.. but it fries my brain trying to imagine what direction and speed the back gearbox would be turning..

Going off on a tangent slightly.. I used to help my cousin, who was a lime-spreading contractor, and we used Land Drive spreaders with Massey Ferguson tractors which had ground-speed pto (instead of being driven through the clutch from the engine, the pto could be driven from the gearbox output, so its speed was proportional to the tractor's forward speed). Land Drive (I think they may still be in existence) used gearboxes and axles from 4wd (eg ex-army) trucks, Bedford or Leyland, and the traction and go-anywhere-ability with a 2wd tractor was phenomenal. We went to a demonstration near Blairgowrie, on a steep grass field in February; a 4wd Ford 8210 with non-powered spreader got part-way up the field before he ran out of traction, making a terrible mess, but the local contractor with his 2wd MF (I think a 390) and Land-Drive spreader, sailed right to the top of the hill and spread lime on an extra-steep rough patch at the top of the field. Very impressive.

This is about 2.5 tonnes of lime, later spreaders (with stronger diffs/bigger wheels) held 3t or more; pulling uphill on a ploughed field, the drawbar used to rattle, there was no load or tension on it, the spreader was driving itself.

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1440276 - 1957 - working
1335674 - err - one day..
Claeys combine M103 - 1963 703129 - working
Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

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blackbob
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by blackbob »

At the risk of being excommunicated from the forum for going totally off-topic, I will post a few more photos from this file, someone might like them.. I used to carry my camera (Canon AE1) with me, which probably didn't do it any good..
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We used to tow the loader tractor behind, on a blacksmith-made drawbar frame which had links welded to the 65's stub-pins - and, after being stopped and warned by some police, a little hydraulic ram which pulled down its brake pedals, via a long hose from the front tractor.

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Balmoral castle - the Queen was one of our customers (should we have had a Royal Warrant on our spreaders?)

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Somewhere around 1990 we upgraded to a 590 and turbo'ed 575, with more hydraulic power so that the spinners (previously mechanically driven from the transmission, and so with very variable speed!) could be driven by hydraulic motor. The floor was still driven mechanically, so we still applied the set amount of lime whatever the forward speed, whether crawling uphill in low 4th, or downhill in high 2nd!
The 178 in the photo above had Multi-Power - but we knew to be careful, and it was always the first to get to the next farm (20mph road speed!!

One of my favourite tractors ever:
) Image
1440276 - 1957 - working
1335674 - err - one day..
Claeys combine M103 - 1963 703129 - working
Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

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mathias1
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by mathias1 »

something like the ferguson "double butt"?
Starts at 3:00 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6XzUmArCeY
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Selene built on the Fordson Super Major New Performance with Silvant winch

Brian
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by Brian »

On the DeLuxe Select-O-Speed tractors there was the option of a ground drive PTO that, with the wheel drive disconnected, would take the PTO shaft speed up to engine speed, say, 2200 rpm. Fords told us that, on a ground drive lime spreader, behind an SOS 4000, with the wheel drive disconnected, the combination could achieve speeds of 60 mph!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Getting back to the 4WD question, both Matbro and Northrop did what the poster is trying to do. They put two rear axles together and drove them from one gearbox via a chain drive drop box from the single engine and gearbox mounted above them. Or my Aussie friend who joined two Sherman Tank Transmissions via a drop box and Fuller Road Ranger gearbox.

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Smokeyjoe
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by Smokeyjoe »

Thanks for the replies, and the lime spreading photos - it's great to see the tractors working in their heyday!

The MF "double butt" is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind, but I'm not sure how the power is being transferred to the rear gearbox? My idea of effectively linking the two PTO shafts together would hopefully mean that the axle speeds would be matched, provided both gearboxes were in the same gear.

It's interesting that Matbro used two back ends - I guess one of these is effectively being driven in reverse. This would be a very neat conversion, but I had something more low tech in mind. The gearbox/backend could just be trailed when needed, do you think there would be a problem with modifying the PTO selector unit to power it up from there?

SkidRoe
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by SkidRoe »

Without a ground drive PTO option, it would be pretty difficult to do a link up like the Double Butt.

That tractor made from 2 Sherman tank transmissions is really something!! Coolest thing I have seen today!!
Fordsons: 22 F, 36 N, 50 E27N, 60 FPM Past: 60 Dexta, 61 SM
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Others: MH 30 & 44, Oliver Super 55, Bobcat 440b & 773

Emiel
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

If I understand it right, you want to use a standard tractor and a backend as a trailer. you want to drive the gearbox through the PTO shaft.

Then it isn't too difficult. IF the gearboxes and rear axle pinion have the same reduction, and both are in the same gear, the wheels should be turning at the same speed. Looks like a funny project to me.

This trick might be easier:
https://goo.gl/images/47xc2C
Image
Image

Rgds Emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Smokeyjoe
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by Smokeyjoe »

I like the tandem E27N! A company in Coventry called Paramount engineering actually made a kit for linking two tractors together in this way.

That is exactly what I had in mind, Emiel - using the gearbox and backend with the same ratio as the driving tractor. If I can work out how to link together the two pto shafts then the whole project might progress to removing the front tractor's axle and connecting the two units on a turntable.

Emiel
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Re: 4wd "conversion"

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Shouldn’t be too difficult. Mount a shaft below the trailed backend. Drive it wit a regular pto shaft from the front tractor. Chain and sprocket on the driven shaft with a sprocket gear to the pto stump of the trailed backend.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

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