Knock in No1

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dwol
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Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Hello all,
I have a knock in the number one piston that I can't seem to get rid of (1962 fordson Super major - Simms pump) Appears to be fuel related, because if I loosen the No1 fuel pipe, the knock completely goes away. (I have been working on this problem for the last 10 years and still have not figured it out. Here is what I have done so far:
1) replaced all injectors, many times - with different rebuild ones
2) had the injector pump rebuilt - professionally (ouch!!)
3) rebuilt the engine (new crank as well) - new pistons, sleeves, etc.
4) installed a complete new head -loaded with all valves, springs, rockers, etc (from another super major)
5) Adjusted timing (23 degrees) verified many times
6) Installed different fuel pipes (no effect)
7) tired different push rods (no effect)
At this point, I have tried just about everything. I believe that it could be 1 of 2 things.
1) the injection pump may have a bad cam lobe on no1, and the rebuild did not address it??
2) the engine cam shaft was re-used and could something wrong with it (but not sure how this would cause the injection knock?)
Any Ideas are welcome......

Brian
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by Brian »

Seems you have done everything possible, just a couple of comments, not trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs:

1. Slackening off the injector pipe causes the knock to disappear. That may not be the injector that is causing the problem, you have changed the injector and the knock remains. A big end knock, a little end knock and even to some extent a main bearing rumble would all disappear when you slackened the injector.

2. If the injection pump was overhauled but not set up correctly on a pump tester it could be your problem.

3. Worn cams in the pump would make it less likely to knock. Have you taken the injector out and put it on the pipe to see what sort of pattern you are getting? Warning!! Keep all body parts and bare skin out of the injector mist.
If you get the mist on bare skin seek medical help immediately. Hold affected part as low as possible below the heart


4. Did you check all the bearings were the correct size when you put them on the crank?

5. A fuel related knock could be accompanied with black smoke.

6. Any chance of water getting in to Number 1?

7 Wild thought, could it be a loose flywheel or clutch?
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Brian

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Thanks Brian!
One more clue - knocks heavy when at idle, and not so much when revved. Also when the engine gets warm, the knock goes away some (about 1/2 as loud, but not all the way gone).

3. Worn cams in the pump would make it less likely to knock. Have you taken the injector out and put it on the pipe to see what sort of pattern you are getting? Warning!! Keep all body parts and bare skin out of the injector mist.
If you get the mist on bare skin seek medical help immediately. Hold affected part as low as possible below the heart
-Have not done this, but I have another injection pump I am trying to get running to test.
4. Did you check all the bearings were the correct size when you put them on the crank?
-Yes, all new matched to the (new) crank
5. A fuel related knock could be accompanied with black smoke.
- No smoke from exhaust runs great.
6. Any chance of water getting in to Number 1?
-No, I don't think so, again no smoke, and no water loss in many (100ish) hours of use
7 Wild thought, could it be a loose flywheel or clutch?
-Nope, replaced clutch (dual) and all bearings, no issues there (no odd vibrations)

Kind regards,
Dave

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

Hello there!

What an interesting problem! You seem to have tried many remedies, I would suggest the following:
1) Is the knock definately just number one cylinder i.e. does it only go when
you slacken the number 1 injector pipe and not when you slacken 2, 3 or 4?
This would rule out it just being "diesel knock" which does decrease on a warm
engine.

2) Is the noise definately on the engine and not on the cam box of the injection pump?
Slackening the injector pipe relieves the fuel pressure and thus strain on the
number 1 pumping element, follower, phasing spacers and cam lobe, and could
cause it to quieten if that is the source of the noise due to damaged components.

3) The mark 3 engine as in the Super Major had injectors with spray holes of .25mm as
against .27mm for the mark 2 engines. If the incorrect nozzle is fitted to number
1 injector, it should not give rise to the problem you have, but you never know!

4) When you overhauled the engine. did you fit new little end bushes to the con rods
and have them reamered so that the gudgeon pins were a sliding fit in them?
As Brian says, noise from a loose little end would decrease when the injector pipe
union was slacked off. It would also decrease as the engine warmed up and the
components expanded to reduce the excessive clearances.

5) You say that it is a 1962 Super Major, the injection pump was changed in April
1962 from the older type vacuum governed Simms pump to the mechanical
governed Simms Minimec pump.
You say that you have had the pump "overhauled" . On the minimec pump it is
possible to remove the pump body incorporating the pumping elements from the
cambox without disturbing the phasing spacers. If yours is a minimec pump it
might have been "overhauled" by leaving the phasing spacers in and just
re-assembling with the existing spacers as found on dismantling.

Whatever type of pump you have it is ESSENTIAL that the injection pump is
correctly CALIBRATED AND PHASED! If it is not correctly phased you might have
numbers 2, 3 and 4 cylinders injecting at 23 degrees but number 1 might be
injecting earlier resulting in a combustion knock. I would have the pump tested
and examined by a different diesel specialist with particular reference to the
phasing of the pump.

5) On the mark 3 Super Major engine the cylinder head was changed in July 1961
at serial number 1609839 to a head with bigger diameter valve springs which were
also heavier and had a higher spring rate. The camshaft was also changed at the
same time to one with a different profile on the cam lobes, and it is ESSENTIAL
that if a head with the later heavier valve springs is fitted to an engine prior
to that serial number, then the camshaft must be changed at the same time to
avoid camshaft failure - probably not a relevant point to your particular situation
but something else to look out for. You could also take the rocker cover off and
turn the engine by hand and check that you have sufficient lift on the camshaft
to fully open the valves, particularly on number 1 cylinder. Compare the lift on
each cylinder to the others. A worn cam lobe will result in insufficient charging
of air into the cylinders and incorrect combustion.

Good luck, at the moment I am tending to the injection pump phasing as the possible cause of your problem.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Thanks for the reply Shepp! More good ideas, for me to think about, here are my answers:
1) Yep, only happens on #1, slack on the other pipes doesn't reduce the noise
2) Seems to be a deeper knock, and coming from the engine, not the pump
3) Tried many injectors (and moved from one cylinder to another, has no effect, always a knock on #1)
4) Good question, I did not have the little bushings reamed and reused the old, however, a few years back I pulled the #1 piston out (bush and all) and re-installed another from another engine. Still knocked afterward, and what a pain to do.
5) All Simms pumps with the old heads (non-FL)
5b) I like the idea of possible cam lobe issue, but what a pain to get to.

I have two other Simms pumps, but both are not in great shape. **(can I use any of the Simms vacuum pumps? One is the same style, and the other is more like a box - older style- both are vacuum oppearated) I am working to get them operable, hopefully once I do, I can find out if it is a phasing issue or related to pump. After that, its got to be mechanical.
Kind regards,
Dave

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Re: Knock in No1

Post by fenhayman »

To help identify the location of a "mechanical" knock, put on some ear defenders and position a wooden hammer handle on the outside of one earpiece and put the other end on the block. By moving this end around you should be able to pinpoint the source of the noise.

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

Hello again

1) What is the serial number of the tractor/engine stamped on the block under number 1 injector union? You say the tractor is 1962 and has a vacuum governed pump and a head that is not marked "FL" so the number should be an 08B number prior to 08B 756398 as the minimec was introduced at this number.

2) The Super Major was introduced November 1960. Up to engine/tractor number 1609838 July 1961 the mark 3 engine was fitted with an inline port cylinder head that had valve springs silver grey in colour, 8.8 coils, 2.48 inches free length.
At engine/tractor number 1609839 July 1961 the head was changed to have bigger diameter and heavier valve springs with consequent changes in the machining to the top of the head to accept the bigger spring retainers. The springs for this head were black in colour, 7.5 coils, 2.31 inches free length. At the same time the camshaft was changed to one with a different form on the cam lobes to suit the new heavier valve springs.
The head marked "FL" was introduced in April 1962 at about the time the minimec pump was fitted. The letters "FL" were simply a foundry marking as the heads were no longer cast at Dagenham. The head was otherwise identical to the one introduced in July 1961 with the heavier valve springs.

The point is you may have an engine with a vacuum governed pump and a head that is not marked "FL", but if you have been swapping heads around you need to check which head it is that is fitted and compare it to the engine number. The head with the heavier valve springs 7.5 coils must be fitted to an engine with an 08B serial number as it has a different camshaft peculiar to that head! Take off the rocker cover and count the number of coils in the springs. If an early head is fitted you may already be in trouble.

3) It is inadvisable to swap injection pumps around as there were changes in the pump plunger diameters, the angle of the helix machined in the plungers, pumps with longer stroke of the plungers (and hence the delivery speed of the fuel), the design of the delivery valves, the rating of the governor spring and the design of the damping valve etc. etc. A pump with 7.5mm diameter pumping elements and a 50 degree helix should be fitted to the mark 3 engine, usually the number stamped on the inspection cover will be SPE.4A.75S, pumps stamped SPE.4A.70S have the earlier 7.00mm pumping elements which may have a 45 or 50 degree helix machined in the elements.

Good luck!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Thanks Shepp,
Going to try to insert images (#@$__@#@ photobucket!!)
Here's my block serial number: (I think it says 1615094)
Image
For the head - Here is a pick of the original head (but no longer on the engine - also had the knock in no1)
Image
This is the current head that I have on the engine:
Image
Current Simms pump (the original-still in use and in question):
Image
My 2 other simms pumps that I am trying to clean up for testing:
Image
Image

Emiel
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by Emiel »

Hi Dwoll,

How sure it is No.1 cylinder? Strange sounds are sometimes heard in other places then they are caused.

We used to have a Belarus tractor on our farm in the 1990's. This machines started making a funny sound in/near the front. We suspected the front axle, which was usually serioiusly overloaded due to the front end loader fitted. Couldnt find any damage there, although when driving a strange sound came from the front end.

After a search we found the problem. a rear axle seal leaked, due to a bad rear axle bearing. Put a new bearing in, new seal, and all went well again.

Slackening no1 injector pipe kills the problem, thus thats a strong indicator to the problem being there, but sometimes strange things happen.

rgds Emiei
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

oehrick
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by oehrick »

As it doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far, what about a slack crankshaft mains bearing at that end ?
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

You seem to have a real mixed up bag of tricks there in this engine!

The serial number 1615094 dates the engine to a mark 3 engine August 1961. As this number is after 1609839 then this block SHOULD have the later camshaft with the different cam profiles.
This block should be fitted with the later head with the sronger larger valve springs with 7.5 coils painted black.

From the pictures of the heads you have submitted it is not possible to tell which valve springs are fitted to them. You will have to count the number of coils in the springs, particularly in the head that is currently fitted. If it is the earlier head with 8.8 coils and silver grey springs then you have an issue.

The fuel injection pump currently fitted is an SPE 4A 70S type, which means it has pumping elements 7.00mm in diamer. This is from a mark 1 engine manufactured prior to serial number 1425097 April 1957, and was not fitted to your mark 3 engine serial number 1615094 when it was new.

One of the spare pumps you have is a SPE 4A 75S type, this has 7.50mm diameter pumping elements and was fitted to mark 2 engines from serial number 1425098 onwards. However, with the introduction of the mark 3 engine at engine number 1481091 there were further internal changes to this SPE 4A 75S injection pump.
The first was an increase in the effective inlet stroke of the pump due to reducing the thickness of the tappet spacers. The second was the use of a new design of delivery valve with the piston portion immediately below the conical seat of these latest valves being parallel faced instead of taper faced. Only these latest valves should be used on mark 3 engines. Without a strip down and examination of this SPE 4A 75S pump you have, you will not know if it has the later modifications necessary for your mark 3 engine.

So to make any progress you need to sort out the issues of which head is fitted (and if the wrong one is fitted has any damage been caused), and ensure that a correctly phased injection pump of the right type with the modifications for the mark 3 engine is fitted!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

oehrick
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by oehrick »

The level of detailed knowledge such as the above, held in the noddles of and shared by Forum members, never ceases to amaze me
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Got it, Thanks Shepp! I never would have known that the pump was not original. That could account for a lot.

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

Hello again

You will appreciate that the later injection pumps with the 7.5mm plungers require a shorter stroke of the plunger to deliver the same amount of fuel as the pump with 7.0mm diameter plungers. In practice this means that the fuel is injected over a shorter time period, modifications like this coupled with changes to valve timing etc. changed the performance characteristics of the engine.

There is a proviso that in an emergency pumps with 7.0mm diameter plungers as used on the mark 1 engine may be used in later mark 2 and mark 3 engines provided that the pump to engine timing is adjusted to that recommended for the mark 1 engine that used the 7.0mm plungers. However pumps with 7.5mm plungers should NEVER be fitted to mark 1 engines.

You could try this to see if it makes any difference.

Two different injection timings are given for the mark 1 engine and pumps with 7.0mm plungers, these differ according to the serial number of the engine.
The settings are 29 degrees and 26 degrees BTDC.

Even if you intend getting the correct injection pump fitted eventually, I would try adjusting the timing to each of these two settings and see how the engine is and if the "knock" disappears. It should not do any damage to the engine and it would certainly be of great interest to myself and everyone else reading this topic!
If the knock disappears then the problem would definitely be tied to the fuel injection. It is probably unlikely that it will disappear as I still think the issue is deeper with phasing and calibration issues as well as pump type, but it is definitely worth a try before you delve any deeper!!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Thanks Shepp,
I have adjusted the timing many times, and tried many settings before and after 23 degrees. I even modified the adjustment claw, so I could go a little further than it would allow. All of these adjustments did not make the knock go away (some of the advance setting did lessen the knock, but created lots of smoke).

I am still working on getting the other 2 pumps operational, they were not stored properly and have some gunk build up internally. I am soaking them in fresh diesel, with the hopes of getting all parts freed up. The older pump is pretty much ready to go, so I may try it this weekend. But the newer one still has one piston that is sticking.

You mention 2 timing settings for older pumps 26 and 29. Any Idea which I should try if I mount my oldest pump (spe 4A 70 5296)?

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

Hi there

I would try each setting in turn and see how the engine runs with regard to smoke, knocking etc.

Good luck!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

oehrick
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by oehrick »

Possibly better than diesel as a penetrating oil dwol is ATF-Q (synthetic auto transmission fluid) and acetone solvent (used a lot where fibre glass work goes on but easy from ebay also) 50:50% mix and shake vigorously each time you use as it separates back into two layers.

If there is rust on the precision surfaces of the pump, a product called DEOX which is advertised in most UK tractor mags I have found excellent, even better than electrolytic methods as it leaves a perfectly clean surface with no blackening, no damage to steel, the rust simply dissolves, while the parts may end up with a textured surface the original un rusted dimensions are retained unlike mechanical derusting.

That it effects only No 1 under all combinations of parts so far tried makes me think it may be something other than diesel knock which I understand to be pre ignition which is usually early injection, higher atomisation pressure, early compression pressure peaking (reduced headspace or wrong stroke) so different piston over-thick big end top shell or longer / wider big / little end centres conrod might be worth putting on the list of other things to look at if all else fails
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Update - I spent quite a bit of time on the old girl yesterday. I was able to mount the old injector pump (spe 4A 70 5296) on her and fired her up (still timed in a 23 degrees). Started right up, but lots of smoke. "No knock!" that I could hear, but again lots of smoke and sounded a little off. I then adjusted timing to 26 degrees, fired up amazingly quick, but still loads of smoke. Finally, timed to 29 degrees, but same effect - loads of smoke. I continued to play with the timing, but no setting could eliminate the huge clouds of smoke coming from the exhaust. That's as far as I got. Not sure what is wrong with the old pump, but seems like some progress was made.

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

Sounds like you might be getting there, but don't forget that engine requires a
SPE 4A 75S type pump fitted to it to be correct, so if you are going to spend money having a pump overhauled and correctly PHASED AND CALIBRATED make sure it is the correct pump! The pump you have just fitted is another SPE 4A 70S type early pump off a mark 1 engine, you can tell that without knowing the model type as it has the early "pull out" cold start on the stop lever same as the early pump that was previously fitted.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Update 2-

Decided to troubleshoot the diaphragm on the older injection pump. I purchased a new diaphragm and replaced, however the engine still ran ragged, with lots of smoke. After examination it looks like the injection pump diaphragm case has been damaged. There is a small cavity in one side which allows air to pass, and the enclosure is not seal tight. I replaced with another diaphragm housing, and wow what a difference.
The knock is completely gone, and purrs like a kitten. Yea!! still a bit more smoke than I would like, but may be able to adjust the diaphragm idle screw for this? She is set at 26 degrees and seems to be a perfect timing for her. Here are some pictures of the cavity form the diaphragm housing (looks like someone brazed it a one time, but it didn't stay)
Image
Image
Image

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

It is possible that with the leak in the governor housing there might have been an imbalance between the opening of the venturi in the inlet manifold (and hence the amount of air being drawn into the engine) and the fueling, resulting in insufficient air being available to burn all the fuel injected. However logic would appear to discount this idea.

The idle screw should be adjusted by trial and error to eliminate any surging in the engine revs when running on tick over speed.

Check that your air cleaner is clean and not restricted.

Check that the stop lever is not stuck out in the excess fuel position.

Incorrect calibration and phasing of the pump again can cause the engine to smoke.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

Update - 3

I put some time in on the tractor this weekend. While she has smoke after starting, once I ran her it took about 8 minutes the smoke completely cleared!! At this point, I think she is completely dialed it, no smoke, and no knock! Only took 10 years to diagnose... To recap, using and old injection pump (spe 4A 70 5296) on a 1962 super major. Because of differences in pump make, I have set the timing to 26 degrees. (normally 23 degrees).
Kind regards,
Dave

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

I have been reading this thread, and very informative and interesting it has been.
Impressive knowledge from the various contributors.
Glad you're back to full power, Dave.
Best, Adrian.

shepp
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by shepp »

You were fortunate - a cheap fix at the end of the day compared to what it might have been!

But I would still be having a word with the "specialist" who "overhauled" the first pump fitted, that pump clearly must have issues.

Well done and kind regards!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dwol
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Re: Knock in No1

Post by dwol »

One more follow up.

I had the original injection pump rebuilt by "Tom Bittner" from Stateline diesel -http://www.dieselstateline.com/. He was highly recommended on some of the other forums. It was rebuilt in August of 2007, and I think I paid $700 US. Not sure what he did wrong, but he sure sent me on a long goose chase, only to come right back to the original problem. Sometimes you just have to have patience,... lots of patience...(and a little persistence)
Kind regards all

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