Super np diesel pump

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Evos3960
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Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

I have 2 super np's one has a simms 4596 diesel pump the other has a 4595. I have just been told that Super np tractors all should a 4596 pumps which would make the one with a 4595 a bitsa if this is true. Can any one tell me if Ford Ford motor company did in actual fact fit 4595 pumps at any time to Super Major np tractors. Both of my tractors are 1964 built.
I would be very grateful for any info on this subject

Peter

shepp
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by shepp »

Hello

There were variations in the minimec pump depending on the application for the 592E engine that it was fitted to. The P4596 was the one fitted to the Super Major application in production, but the P4595 is very similar, and most working components are identical.

Does your P4595 pump have a tacho drive on the rear? - most P4595 pumps did not. Does it have a mounting plate for a lift pump on the side that would identify it as a pump for higher speed truck and industrial applications?
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Evos3960
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

Hello Shepp,

Thank you for replying to my question about the diesel pump on my Super np.
Yes it does have an entry point for the tacho cable on the rear plate of the pump, it also has a diamond shaped cover plate on the side held on with 2 studs. The model number is clearly stamped on the upper part of the pump also. Would you think that the tractor came out of the factory as new with this 4595 pump fitted or is has someone else fitted during it working life.

Many thanks
Peter

shepp
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by shepp »

Hi Peter

Thanks for the information. This P4595 pump is for a high speed industrial or automotive application of the 592E engine. Many of these applications had the lift pump on the side of the injector pump and not on the engine block.

What is the serial number of the engine that it is fitted to? I can then tell you whether the tractor has had an engine change or just an injection pump change.

Most internal components of the P4595 and P4596 were the same, the difference was on the delivery valves. Delivery valves for the P4595 pumps had a flat on the piston section of the delivery valve which was specific to high speed industrial and automotive applications, this supposedly did not deliver the performance characteristics needed for tractor applications. Delivery valves on the P4596 pumps did not have this flat. Only P4596 pumps were fitted to production line Super Major tractors, so your tractor on it's original engine would not have been originally fitted with this pump. However if your tractor has had an engine change to an industrial or automotive specification engine then the P4595 would be correct, hence the need to know the serial number.


It is pertinent to note that most Dagenham built new replacement engines supplied for tractor applications after July 1964 (once the initial spare parts stock of tractor application engines had gone) were industrial spec engines with an "S" prefix serial number. The 592E engine was still made at Dagenham (after Super Major production had stopped in July 1964) until 1970 for industrial applications. This was possible because casting of the blocks had been farmed out to the Sterling Metals Foundry in March 1964, heads had been cast by a different foundry since April 1962 (FL heads), and so it was just a case of assembling these older engines at Dagenham from bought in components and there was no demand on the busy Dagenham foundry for castings for these older engines.

So the serial number of your engine will tell us a lot, especially when compared with the date casting codes on the block and head.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

shepp
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by shepp »

Hi Peter

On reflection the fact that your P4595 pump has the tacho drive on the rear suggests to me that the engine in your tractor might have been a new replacement engine fitted to your tractor by a Ford dealer in that period from later 1964 until 1970 when only the industrial spec engines had been available - they would have been suitably modified with the tacho drive fitted on the P4595 to suit fitting into tractor applications. As I said the serial numbers and casting date codes will tell the story.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Evos3960
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

Hello Shepp,

Many thanks for the useful information that you have sent me. I am sorry that I have not replied before now but I have been away from my computer for a while, however I will now go and look for the engine number on that tractor and email you again with what I find.

Kind regards,
Peter

Evos3960
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

Hello again Shepp.
I have looked again at the numbers stamped on the block of this tractor and they don't make much sense to me but anyway here they are; firstly just under the injector pipes there is a stamp that looks a bit like the Volkswagon car badge but rather small; then come what looks like G050J: then the oval Ford badge then underneath the number there is another number which is 13167; then the serial number 08D974309. Finally just above the sump there is what I assume is the part number E1ADDN 6015. And there we have it.
I would be pleased to hear your thoughts on this.

Many Thanks
Peter

Evos3960
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

Shepp,
I omitted to mention that after the oval Ford badge there comes in large letters FL.

Peter

shepp
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by shepp »

Hi Peter

The relevant number is the 08D974309, this is the serial number, this is an original Super Major tractor serial number of the last month of production July 1964, the last Super Major produced was 08D976148. My Super Major is 08D963717, again July 1964, with it's original P4596 pump. During the last couple of month's manufacture the Ford Motor Company massively increased production of the tractors to build up a stockpile of tractors to carry them through to the production launch of the new 6X range. Even when the 6X tractors became available in 1965 , there were long waiting times for the new models and there were stories of the new model tractors changing hands for sums in excess of the new list price like some car models have done and still do. The same situation applied to the new Massey Ferguson 100 line models.

At some point someone MIGHT have fitted the P4595 pump to this engine, which is a pump for high speed automotive and industrial applications of the 592E engine. The differences to the P4596 are as stated previously, on the delivery valves. There is no need to worry about this, the flat on the delivery valve piston and the provision for a lift pump on the side of the injection pump body were the differences between the two pumps.
However, as yours is a very late production tractor, there is also the distinct possibility that this P4595 pump WAS fitted to your tractor as original on the production line - many components were in short supply for the last Super Majors off the line due to the accelerated production targets. My Super Major has the square rear lights as for the new 6X tractors, as described in Stuart Gibbard's DVD on Fordson tractors, as the supply of rectangular lights had dried up. As I said previously, the 592E engine continued in production at Dagenham for industrial applications until 1970, with "S" prefix serial numbers and had the P4595 pump. It is perfectly possible therefore that your tractor, being a very late production tractor, might have been assembled using an engine fitted with the P4595 as original on the production line if the supply of engines fitted with P4596 pumps had been used up. The serial number in the tractor series would have then been punched on the block as the tractor came off the assembly line. Presumably there would have been a number of very late Super Majors with P4595 pumps if this theory is correct.

INTERESTING!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Evos3960
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

Hello Shepp,
Thank you once again for the further information on the fuel pump on my tractor.
Although it takes me a long time to complete I try very hard to get my tractor to be as near as possible to how they would have looked and worked when they first left the factory. This being the case the value at the end of this process is important, would you think that the value of the tractor would be less because the pump was not the generally accepted one.
Kind regards
Peter

shepp
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by shepp »

Hi Peter

If your tractor originally went out with the P4595 pump, which as I say is quite possible due to the component and or engine shortages in that last month of Super Major production, then I would not have thought it would affect the value at all - the build would be correct for that particular tractor.

However if you are concerned there is a P4596 pump on Ebay at the moment with someone called ak tractors in London, item 263985204131, £175 without warranty.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Evos3960
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Re: Super np diesel pump

Post by Evos3960 »

Hello Shepp,
Many thanks again. In the light of what you say about the last few Supers being sent out with different parts I think I will keep it as it is because the pump on it at present is performing very well, and sometimes the old addage applies" If it aint broken don't fix it

All the best Shepp

Peter"

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