Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Post Reply
dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi out there you knowlegable people, especially the one's who've helped me in the past. This machine of mine just keeps on giving - problems I mean. Moved it today to strip down the brakes to photograph them when it decided to rev. It built up slowly and then virtually maxed out with blue smoke, glowing embers from the exhaust, oil in the exhaust; the whole works like it's Nov 5th. Having only just got the blighter running again I didn't expect it to give me problems one after the other, but it is. I tried making sure that the linkages to the pump and air intake were free and moving by giving it a quick open and close of the throttle, but all that produced were higher revs and the occasional loud pop from the exhaust. It was easy to stop with the fuel cut off AND it was aslo easy to regulate it to a nice tickover using the same lever but not quite pushing it to the 'kill' position. I worked out (or think I've worked out) that this is linked to the diapragm and wondered if there might be a rupture? But then if there was, could I control the revs with the off lever? Surely it might just still run away with itself? I don't think so but I'm not sure. So, making a quick dash for the computer I managed (via this site) to find a manual for the simms pump that I have. I was interested to see that there was a maximum speed screw and idling screw at the air intake. They are linked to the air intake butterfly and seem to control its opening to allow air in - someone tell me that's right please? Anyway, they were somewhat corroded and needed a good dose of oil before cleaning. But upon examination, they both seemed to be already set to their maximum settings to keep the air intake shut thereby allowing no further adjustment to close the air intake. So there's no real point in adjusting those. Anyone got experience of this? Could it be a ruptured diaphragm?

henk
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Posts: 2069
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:56 pm
Location: Arnemuiden, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by henk »

Dukeyfox,

Check the diapragm inside on the front cover of the pump. Could be broken. Get the two pipes of en four screws and the cover comes of. Mind you theres a spring behind it.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

shepp
True Blue
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:24 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by shepp »

Sorry to hear of your continuing problems!

In the governor housing at the front of the injection pump there is a damping valve, a spring that acts against the diaphragm and a diaphragm that is attached to the control rod that we have previously talked about. When the engine is not running the spring acts on the diaphragm (and hence the control rod) to put the pumping elements into maximum governed fueling setting - this is why these engines start so well even without the excess fuel button being depressed. When the engine starts the two vacuum pipes that are connected between the governor housing and either side of the venturi in the inlet manifold act to create a vacuum in the governor housing which moves the diaphragm (and hence the control rod) to act against the spring pressure and reduce the fueling and hence the engine speed. There is a balancing act between the venturi opening in the inlet manifold and the diaphragm and governor spring, the venturi opening in the inlet manifold is altered by the throttle lever.

At the other end of the pump the stop lever acts directly on that end of the control rod, so that the rod can be moved into the fuel cut off position to stop the engine. That explains why you can regulate the speed of the engine in these circumstances with the stop lever. As I have previously said, with the engine not running if there is resistance when you move the stop lever to the cut off position that would mean that the spring in the governor housing is intact and acting against the diaphragm and hence the control rod.

If the above checks out these factors all combine to point to a problem with the vacuum effect within the governor housing. Proceed as follows:

Firstly, on top of the pump to the right hand end just before the governor housing with the 2 vacuum pipes going into it there is a circular governor filter capsule. This allows air into the other side of the governor housing than the vacuum pipes and diaphragm when the engine is running and the diaphragm is moved by vacuum effect by the vacuum pipes. Remove this and check that the mesh filter is clean and not clogged up. Poke a piece of wire into the opening that it screws into to check that it is clear into the governor housing. If this is not clear then air cannot be drawn in to allow the diaphragm to move against the vacuum effect. Start the engine briefly to see if there is any improvement. Whether or not there is improvement clean the mesh capsule, lightly oil it and re-install.

If there is no improvement then move onto the vacuum pipes and the venturi. Check as best you can that the vacuum pipes are not split and drawing air in and that the unions are tight at the injection pump end and the inlet manifold end . Remove the rubber air inlet pipe from the inlet manifold, operate the throttle lever and observe that the venturi in the inlet manifold opens and closes with the movement of the throttle lever.

If all this checks out then we move onto the last item which is the diaphragm in the governor housing. I have to say that failure of the diaphragm is both rare but the most common cause of the problems you have - but eliminate the other possible causes first as they are easier! Remove the governer housing held by the 4 bolts and dismantle - it is fairly logical but get one of the inexpensive manuals such as the
"I & T" one available from www.tractormanuals.co.uk if you are unsure. New diaphragms are widely available from the classic tractor suppliers such as Agriline. Re-assemble and test that all is well. You will need to adjust the damping valve to eliminate any surging on low revs as explained in the manual - they are only twenty odd quid and well worth buying.

Good luck!!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

I think I'll call this chapter of my life 'Henk and Shepp to the rescue'. Thank you very much to both of you. I have already checked the air intake and the linkages and it appears to be working fine. There don't appear to be any air leaks in the pipes and the unions are tight. I had already cleaned and oiled the filter on the diapragm housing so it would appear plan B is now in operation. And yes, I think a manual is called for ASAP. I'll let you know what happens, and if it doesn't play ball; 'the tractor gets it'.

PS Just so you can both fel happy in your lives, when I've done that I'm going to sort out the stating problems on my Case 1594. Nothing seems to work - including my Ford digger that had a minor electrical fire yesterday afternoon. Isn't life just great? :cry:

shepp
True Blue
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:24 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by shepp »

Starting problems can usually be sorted out, but if you get to having hydrashift gearbox or hydraulic problems on your Case (DB) 1594 it would be better to cull it before it gives you a nervous breakdown!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

Yes - it's hydrashift. You're too late; I've already had two breakdowns. The repairs and things I've done to that machine are unreal. Today I bought a new battery 1000ah for it as the old one's dying a bit but can still be used on the Major - and if that doesn't do it any better, then it's off to some keen and enthusiastic restorer who thinks they're a good machine. I'm looking at a MF 290 this week with a view to getting rid of the DB. It's a shame because it's got everything that I need except 'going'. Without the 'g' word it's basically scrap. I'll let you know out of interest.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

Just to let you know that I removed the diapragm today. Good advices all round again. It was cracked and perished all over the place and a half inch split just to let me know it was past even the finest of gaffer tape. God only knows how that machine actually ever ran. I have a feeling it may even be the original one in there. I ordered a new one the other day but because of the Scottish postal system still runing donkeys and steam, it hasn't arrived yet. Hopefully it'll be here by the new year or whilst I am still relatively young.

henk
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Posts: 2069
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:56 pm
Location: Arnemuiden, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by henk »

Let us know if it solved the problem.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

shepp
True Blue
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:24 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by shepp »

A good MF 290 would serve you well if (preferably) it is not multi-power, it's good solid simple and strong British engineering like the Fordson and Ford models.

Perhaps I am being a little too unkind to David Brown and Case DB models?
The problem with the David Brown and Case DB tractors was the designs were not quite right. The "Selectamatic" hydraulic valve was over complicated and too finely engineered to stand up to abuse, which is what many farmers gave them with irregular oil change periods and neglect of the hydraulic filter, and hence incurred the problems caused by this abuse! However many tractors carefully and regularly serviced gave thousands of hours of problem free work. The Hydrashift gearbox would have been a much more reliable unit if it had been powered by a constant running engine driven low pressure pump, so that the unit did not drop to first gear when the clutch was depressed. Apart from that it was a fine piece of engineering design, and those gearboxes that were used carefully and correctly again would give thousands of hours service. David Brown engineering and materials quality was top class, the designs let them down. It was reported that the brief to the design team from DB management was that you can design whatever you want as long as it will bolt onto what is already there! The launch of the 6X range of Ford tractors in 1965 with their wet disc brakes, independent hydraulic PTO, independent hydraulic pumps, planetary reduction gears etc etc made many competing tractor makes and models virtually obsolete at that point. By 1980 the DB designs were very much behind the times.

However there is a little bit of David Brown in many 1950's/1960's Fordson tractors - many of the gear cutting machines at Dagenham were David Brown machines which could make the best gears available!

The "new" David Brown designed tractor would have made the company if they had been allowed to keep and produce it - this was the tractor that was eventually launched as the Case 5120, 5140 and 5150 models. Prototypes were on test on farms around Meltham disguised with 94 series cabs and tinwork when Case acquired International Harvester in 1985. The 4 speed powershift on these prototypes was an improved and re-designed version of the hydrashift and ultimately proved to be an excellent reliable power shift transmission. Subsequently final testing and design completion of the range was transferred to the German factories of International Harvester after the acquisition of IH, and plans were made to close the Meltham plant. What could have been....?
Last edited by shepp on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

Still waiting to see the MF. I want to pick my own time and get there when least expected so that I see the engine start from cold. Then get it up to working temp, check for oil leaks etc, you know the drill I'm sure.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

Replaced the diphragm in the fuel pump today. Doesn't race away now, but the revs are still a bit high. I take it all back - there may be an air leak after all. Will check it on Sunday and also see if there's any more adjustment in the tick over screw. One thing I've noticed is that there's not as much smoke as there used to be. I'm so lucky that I checked the oil to see it hadn't all leaked away. It is good news that there's not as much smoke, but surely there's got to be a catch to it?

shepp
True Blue
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:24 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by shepp »

There is a balancing act between the opening of the venturi in the inlet manifold and the position and movement of the diaphragm against the spring and hence the position of the control rod and hence the fuel that is injected. The opening of the venturi also regulates the amount of air that is enabled to be drawn into the engine to burn the fuel that is injected. With a previously split diaphragm the fueling would have been excessive for the venturi opening position and thus the amount of air being drawn into the engine available for combustion, hence the smoke from unburnt fuel! With a new diaphragm the balance is restored, hence less smoke.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

shepp wrote:There is a balancing act between the opening of the venturi in the inlet manifold and the position and movement of the diaphragm against the spring and hence the position of the control rod and hence the fuel that is injected. The opening of the venturi also regulates the amount of air that is enabled to be drawn into the engine to burn the fuel that is injected. With a previously split diaphragm the fueling would have been excessive for the venturi opening position and thus the amount of air being drawn into the engine available for combustion, hence the smoke from unburnt fuel! With a new diaphragm the balance is restored, hence less smoke.
Thanks Shepp. Didn't know that, but now you've explained it I suppose it makes common sense. I'm going to have a look at the vacuum pipes tommorrow if it doesn't rain too hard. I was thinking that if there's nothing obvious, wrap the pipes in industrial cling-film and maybe that would seal any pin-prick holes and at least point the way to which pipe is leaking, that is if the tick-over adjustment screw doesn't work.

dukeyfox
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:16 pm
Location: Newton Stewart, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by dukeyfox »

Strange one, but I'm working on it. No apparrent leaks on the vacuum pipes. Tick over adjustment has no allowance left. Still ticking over a little too quickly but improvment 100% on pre-diapragm fitting. Still able to pull back the lever/shut off to regulate a nice slow tick over. Shows signs that are remenicent of small amount air getting into vacuum system but I can't find any. Wrapped both pipes in industrial cling film, (not very original but it may have worked) but no sign of leaking. Any suggestiions from you guys out there? :scratchhead:

henk
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Posts: 2069
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:56 pm
Location: Arnemuiden, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Fordson Major Diesel - smokey engine + F1 revs; help!

Post by henk »

Do the pipes have the same diameter?
Mine had different in the past and it was idling to fast.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

Post Reply