6 cylinder NP Super Major

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6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby Bonkie » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:47 pm

Hello Fordson fanatics,

Firstly, I want to thank all the contributors of this site for helping me (and countless others) understand a lot more about the technical details of the tractors.
I'm from the Netherlands, and I've been lurking around these forums for a while now.

My dad and me currently own three fordson tractors:
A 1952 Fordson Major with a 65 HP industrial engine. (original engine had it's bearings broken, which made quite the mess)
A 1958 Fordson Dexta with a 45 HP Super Dexta block. (the original engine was at it's last breath, I got my hands on the super P3.152 Super Dexta block quite cheap)
A 1964 Fordson NP Super Major, which is currently powered by a 510E (590E underblock with FL head) engine pulled out of a clayson combine.

The Super Major is a project we're currently working on, so I have a few questions:

From what I've read, there's a lot of different opinions on using the original double plate clutch in a 6 cylinder conversion.
Our tractor isn't going to do much heavy work, but I'm curious as to whether the original clutch will suffice without much problems. (the original Major flywheel is bolted on, by the way)
If it doesn't: What would you advice on using instead, while still being able to use the PTO? (live drive isn't important).

Of course, after the first test run, the tractor felt a bit slow. Digging a bit deeper got us the information that it's a 4.4 ratio NP Super Major.
I've read somewhere on these forums that the pinion- and crownwheel from a 3.5 ratio Power/Super major will bolt straight on, but on this subject the opinions also seem to differ.
I've also heard that you'd need another NP with a 3.5 ratio in order for the gears to fit.
Lastly, I was wondering if you need to sever the transmission and the rear end in order to remove the pinion wheel.

Hopefully my questions are clear, and not too much of a hassle to answer.

Best regards,

Bonkie
1958 Fordson Dexta - Super Dexta Block
1952 Fordson Major - Industrial Block
1964 NP Super Major - 6 Cylinder
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby mathias1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:13 pm

Hallo Bonkie,

Welcome to the board. I hope you will enjoy the board and will become also a part of it, so it even gets better.

As for the double clutch on a 6cil conversion: Brians advice on this is to not use a double clutch on a 6cil conversion.
It's better to use the stronger 13" single clutch on it. you will need to change the flywheel and the gearbox. As your's is a new performance, these have a different gear ratio compared to the normal super majors.
I must say thatmy super 4 does have a 2714e dorset 6pot engine in it and also has a live drive gearbox. It does has some issues with the clutch as the pto can't be engaged while the engine is turning. Maybe there's some wear on the clutch plate, or something else. As there's more work on it to split compared to a standard super major, i haven't find the place and time yet to look into it.

you can find the gear ratio's of a new performance on the small triangle just behind the gear lever, or (like my early NP) on the flange of the rear transmission at the left side of the tractor. Afaik the gear transmission of a standard super are always different to a NP tractor. Can't say if you can swap the differential between a super and a new performance. Maybe someone else can help here.

To dismantle the pinion you will have to split the tractor between gearbox and rear transmission.
Fordson Super Major New Performance
County Super 4 built on the Fordson Super Major
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby Bonkie » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:56 pm

mathias1 wrote:Hallo Bonkie,

Welcome to the board. I hope you will enjoy the board and will become also a part of it, so it even gets better.

It's better to use the stronger 13" single clutch on it. you will need to change the flywheel and the gearbox. As your's is a new performance, these have a different gear ratio compared to the normal super majors.
I must say thatmy super 4 does have a 2714e dorset 6pot engine in it and also has a live drive gearbox. It does has some issues with the clutch as the pto can't be engaged while the engine is turning. Maybe there's some wear on the clutch plate, or something else. As there's more work on it to split compared to a standard super major, i haven't find the place and time yet to look into it.

This wasn't exactly the answer I was hoping to receive :(. Aside from the old 13" clutch, isn't there any other clutches available that will fit without requiring me to replace the entire gearbox, since I'm guessing it isn't rather easy to find a new gearbox.

To dismantle the pinion you will have to split the tractor between gearbox and rear transmission.

Thanks, I'll wait a bit before dismantling it then. I'd rather just pull everything apart all at once, before painting the whole thing.

We also swapped the mechanical injection pump that was originally on the 6 cylinder engine for a pneumatic governed one, since it only ran on three cylinders using the mechanical pump. I'd prefer using the mechanical pump though, since it has a lot better throttle reaction. Is there anyone here who can tell me what might be causing the pump to fail? (I'm certain it's the pump, since the tractor runs perfectly using the pneumatic pump.)

Best regards,
Bonkie
1958 Fordson Dexta - Super Dexta Block
1952 Fordson Major - Industrial Block
1964 NP Super Major - 6 Cylinder
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby oehrick » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:16 am

Have you checked both pumps have the same cylinder firing order Bonkie ?? if so sounds like a mechanical problem in the mechanically governed pump, I only know the pneumatic but someone else will know
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby Old Hywel » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:15 am

Seized plungers in the pump? I remember that on a BMC 6 that had been standing a while.
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby shepp » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:34 pm

Hello Bonkie

The issue with the 12 inch livedrive clutch was that the aluminium cover plate was not particularly robust, and occasional failures were encountered. With a 6 cylinder engine you are obviously putting more horsepower and hence strain on the clutch. For this reason tractors such as the Roadless or County with the 6 cylinder engine were only available with the 13 inch heavy duty clutch and standard drive gearbox. Agriline and possibly other suppliers now do a modified live clutch package with a steel cover plate, and the assembly is supposed to be a lot more robust than the original aluminium cover plate. It is an expensive bit of kit but might be worth considering. However, if you do not anticipate any hard work for your tractor I would not be unduly worried about keeping the original live clutch setup. To change to the 13 inch heavy duty clutch would require you to find and fit a standard drive gearbox, you will be very lucky to find a New Performance standard drive gearbox and the standard drive gearbox for the earlier tractors will not fit unless you change the complete gearbox and PTO drive assembly including the cases as explained below. If you did that then you would lose the "New Performance " PTO horsepower increase provided by the revised PTO ratios. However, I don't really see the point in doing this if you are not going to work the tractor hard. If that changes you can always go for the Agriline type livedrive clutch package.

The New Performance Super Major came not only with a final drive diff ratio of 4.375:1 as opposed to 3.5:1 on the previous Super Major, but also a gearbox in which every gear ratio except 5th was changed to give speeds better suited to PTO work. In addition the gearbox case and the PTO drive case were changed and considerably strengthened. The PTO drive ratios were changed to give 540 rpm at the PTO at 1473rpm instead of 1200rpm on the earlier Super Major. The PTO drive gears as well as being of different ratios to the early Super Major also had different heat treatments to make them stronger. The 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion was still available as an optional extra for the New Performance tractor for those who wanted faster ground speeds. As far as I am aware the 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion directly interchanges with the 4.375:1 crown wheel and pinion. If it is out and out road speeds that you are concerned about, then the overall ratios and ground speeds at 1700 engine rpm in 6th gear for a New Performance tractor with a 4.375:1 final drive are 22.25:1 with a ground speed of 19.6 kph, for a New Performance tractor with a 3.5:1 final drive it is 17.80:1 with a ground speed of 24.5 kph, and this compares to the earlier Super Major with an overall ratio of 19.3:1 and a ground speed of 22.60 kph. With 5th gear the speeds of the early Super Major and the New Performance tractor with the 3.5:1 final drive are the same. However, with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears the speeds of the New Performance tractor even when coupled to the 3.5:1 final drive are still considerably lower than the early Super Major with the 3.5:1 final drive. In other words in 6th gear you would get an increase in speed from 19.6 kph to 24.5 kph if you fitted the 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion. Hardly a massive increase, personally I would keep the existing setup, drive that bit slowly, and take in what is going on around you as you travel!

With regard to the injection pump, the firing order of the 6 cylinder engine was the same with the pneumatic governed pump and the minimec pump. It sounds as though possibly 3 pumping elements are either stuck or worn out on your minimec pump. Remove the side cover, turn the camshaft by hand, and observe the action of the pump elements. You will probably need to have it overhauled by specialist injection services.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby AdrianNPMajor » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:40 am

Thank you, Shepp. Most informative. I have learned a lot.
I have no experience of a two-stage clutch, or the 13" single-stage clutch, so have nothing to add other than to say that the 11" clutch on my single-stage clutch NP Super never even hints at being a weak link.
Re gearing, I agree with your conclusions. In my opinion, seeking higher ground speeds is a pointless exercise. Five minutes later arriving in the field is neither here nor there, but having the most useful ratios available when the tractor begins to pull is a finely balance affair, and makes the difference between making smooth, steady progress with the job in hand and a stuttery, stop and start exercise.
We all learn to extract the best from our tractors, but I would say that Ford got the gearing just about perfect on the NP Super when it comes to field work. Whizzing along on the road is another matter!
Best, Adrian.

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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby shepp » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:53 pm

Hi Adrian

Yes, the standard 11 inch single clutch never gave any problems. When the live clutch was launched in late 1956 it was marketed as a heavy duty unit, in one way it was as it had 12 inch plates which gave a greater friction area, but the aluminium cover let it down slightly.

I agree absolutely that Ford got the gear ratios and PTO ratios just right for PTO work on the New Performance Super Major - they had to because the DB 990 was running rings around the earlier Super Major at that time for PTO work! However the reverse was true for hydraulic 3 point linkage work. My New Performance Super Major is a dream to use with any of my classic PTO balers - the NH Super Hayliner 68, the NH 268, the Massey Ferguson 703, or the last small baler that we bought new which is a NH 940, and it can really make the NH 940 perform in a heavy hay crop!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby Bonkie » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:38 pm

Firstly, sorry for my delayed reaction. I was under the impression that my last post was uploaded, but it might have timed out before I could post it.

shepp wrote:Hello Bonkie

The issue with the 12 inch livedrive clutch was that the aluminium cover plate was not particularly robust, and occasional failures were encountered. With a 6 cylinder engine you are obviously putting more horsepower and hence strain on the clutch. For this reason tractors such as the Roadless or County with the 6 cylinder engine were only available with the 13 inch heavy duty clutch and standard drive gearbox. Agriline and possibly other suppliers now do a modified live clutch package with a steel cover plate, and the assembly is supposed to be a lot more robust than the original aluminium cover plate. It is an expensive bit of kit but might be worth considering. However, if you do not anticipate any hard work for your tractor I would not be unduly worried about keeping the original live clutch setup.


We've been test-driving it around for a bit now, and it seems like either the friction plates are fairly worn (it fails at low revs in gear 3H when you press the brake), but I'm guessing that could be because the crankshaft oil seals are leaking on the clutch side. If that isn't the case, I'm afraid we'll either have to buy one of the modified clutch packages or fit another gearbox without live drive. The latter is something I especially dislike, since only the Super major has differential locking.

shepp wrote: To change to the 13 inch heavy duty clutch would require you to find and fit a standard drive gearbox, you will be very lucky to find a New Performance standard drive gearbox and the standard drive gearbox for the earlier tractors will not fit unless you change the complete gearbox and PTO drive assembly including the cases as explained below. If you did that then you would lose the "New Performance " PTO horsepower increase provided by the revised PTO ratios. However, I don't really see the point in doing this if you are not going to work the tractor hard. If that changes you can always go for the Agriline type livedrive clutch package.


Unless driving through the woods with a few tonnes of logs is considered heavy work, the tractor isn't going to do anything seriously heavy.
But because of the differential lock on the Super rear end, the work it's going to do will be made easier.

shepp wrote:The New Performance Super Major came not only with a final drive diff ratio of 4.375:1 as opposed to 3.5:1 on the previous Super Major, but also a gearbox in which every gear ratio except 5th was changed to give speeds better suited to PTO work. In addition the gearbox case and the PTO drive case were changed and considerably strengthened. The PTO drive ratios were changed to give 540 rpm at the PTO at 1473rpm instead of 1200rpm on the earlier Super Major.


The PTO speeds should not pose a problem either way, since the only thing the PTO might be used for is a hydraulic HIAB crane for logging.

shepp wrote:The 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion was still available as an optional extra for the New Performance tractor for those who wanted faster ground speeds. As far as I am aware the 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion directly interchanges with the 4.375:1 crown wheel and pinion. ~~ In other words in 6th gear you would get an increase in speed from 19.6 kph to 24.5 kph if you fitted the 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion. Hardly a massive increase.

We've found a donor rear end with the 3.5:1 ratio, so that shouldn't be such a problem. However, I think it's less work to switch the entire rear end, rather than switching just the crown and pinion. The only thing we'll lose though, would be the reinforced hitch, since the donor rear end is a non NP one. Is that correct, and will it bolt straight on?

With regard to the injection pump, the firing order of the 6 cylinder engine was the same with the pneumatic governed pump and the minimec pump. It sounds as though possibly 3 pumping elements are either stuck or worn out on your minimec pump. Remove the side cover, turn the camshaft by hand, and observe the action of the pump elements. You will probably need to have it overhauled by specialist injection services.[/quote]
I don't think it's a minimec pump on the 590E engines, right? The minimec pump was introduced later, in the 2700 series, as far as I know. (directly mounted on the pump gear on the front, the one we have has a 15cm axle coming from the gear).
How can I check if the pumping elements are worn out, though? Do I need to drive the pump with a lathe, and check the fuel output on every atomizer?

Best regards,
Bonkie
1958 Fordson Dexta - Super Dexta Block
1952 Fordson Major - Industrial Block
1964 NP Super Major - 6 Cylinder
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby shepp » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:04 pm

Hello Bonkie

Firstly if your crankshaft rear oil seal is leaking then the linings on your clutch plates will be saturated with oil, and come what may you will need to split the tractor, replace the crankshaft seal rope halves, take off the clutch and re-build it with new clutch plates and linings as a minimum. You will need to know how to set up the clutch cover on re-assembly. Given that fact, it might be more expedient to buy a new clutch assembly complete. You can still get the clutch assembly with an aluminium cover from suppliers such as Agriline, it will be about £200 sterling cheaper than the cover that Agriline do with a cast iron cover which is supposedly significantly more robust. You will have to make a decision at that time.

If you try to switch the rear end (presumably from the gearbox back) of your New Performance tractor with that of an earlier Super Major you will come up against a number of issues. The PTO shaft of the New Performance tractor (from the six splines back that is within the transmission case ) is one eight of an inch bigger in diameter than the earlier Super Major shaft. Only this later shaft will fit the New Performance PTO drive gearbox located under the main gearbox - the earlier Super Major shaft will not fit. In addition, the drive gear on the later NP PTO shaft for the hydraulic pump is of a different size with a different number of teeth to the earlier PTO shaft. The drive gear on the hydraulic pump of the New Performance tractor is correspondingly different in size and tooth numbers to the earlier Super Major pump. So on doing such a switch you would have to install the pump out of the New Performance tractor back end and use the PTO shaft out of the New Performance tractor.
But it does not end there. You would have to swap the hydraulic top covers as well if you want to retain the drop control valve fitted to the New Performance tractor. In addition to this you would have to swap the top link rocker assembly so as to retain the double acting top link feature that the New Performance tractor had - the earlier Super Major has a single acting top link set up in the lift cover and a different rocker assembly. Given all this, if you are still determined to install a 3.5:1 crown wheel and pinion setup in your tractor to get a miserly increase in top gear speed, then you need to just install the crown wheel and pinion of the earlier Super Major into your New Performance tractor, otherwise you will have a real mish mash of components and a real "Heinz 57 varieties" tractor!

With effect from April 1962, the 590E engine, the 592E engine, the F3-144 engine and the F3-152 engine were all fitted with Minimec pumps in place of the vacuum governed pumps. The 590E engine pump was still mounted towards the rear of the engine and driven by a long shaft from the timing cover. Some 590E engines as fitted to some Clayson combines and other applications also had a pump with a different type of mechanical governor to the Minimec fitted. I would not recommend that you try to diagnose your pump with it off the engine and by driving it in a lathe with atomizers fitted to every fuel pipe, which is what you would need to do as it is only under load that worn pumping elements would properly show up. For a start you would need to accurately control the number of complete revolutions of the pump camshaft. You would need extremely accurate measuring tubes for each atomizer to compare individual pump elements. More importantly, fuel under pressure from an atomizer can easily penetrate flesh leading to blood poisoning!! Far better to take your pump to a diesel injection service depot and have them check it - it should not be too expensive, about £30 with many of the independent specialists in the UK as an example.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.
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Re: 6 cylinder NP Super Major

Postby AdrianNPMajor » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:43 am

Hello Bonkie
If I were you, I would not ignore the advice Shepp has given.
Most informative, Shepp. Thank you.
Best, Adrian.
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