Steering Box - overhaul or not?

This forum is about the Fordson Dexta, Super Dexta and Petrol Dexta.
Dell Balallan
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Dell Balallan »

thanks for your help, i will look at it again tomorrow

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Worm shaft - which way round?

Post by Bensdexta »

Done a silly thing - didn't mark the worm shaft before I removed it - and it will fit in two positions? :(

All I can think of doing is trying it in both positions and choosing the one that seems to give the easiest movement?
Also I figure the way round that needs the thinnest shim is the right way round - is that logic?

Should have looked at Stefan's description first - he marked his on disassembly.

Also it looks like I won't need much shimming in the bottom - not nearly as much as I took out.

Any advice appreciated!
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Fortunately I realised I did take photos during disassembly and can identify odd nicks etc on the shaft to confirm the correct way around - taking pics is always a good thing to do! :wink:

And yes the smoothest sliding way, was the correct way round!
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Nick
True Blue
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Nick »

Ben, as you know ive had some problems of my own steering box, its sorted now however as i bought a top shaft repair kit. However, i only have one metal shim for under the sox bolt cover plate, are these available still or will i have to make my own out of gasket paper?
Oh yay, look, another seized bolt! Lets get a hammer.....and some kano.....and some cider!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Nick wrote:Ben, as you know ive had some problems of my own steering box, its sorted now however as i bought a top shaft repair kit. However, i only have one metal shim for under the six bolt cover plate, are these available still or will i have to make my own out of gasket paper?
I believe top nut shims may be available later this year from Agriline, but in the meantime it's a case of make your own. I think paper will do, although if one has time one can make metal shims using a Dremel.

Did you reshim the bottom of your box, if so what thinkness? Where did you get your new top shaft repair kit from? What thickness shim do you need at the top?
TIA
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Nick
True Blue
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Nick »

Thanks for the reply ben, i thought i may have to make my own. I didnt have to re-shim the bottom, it was surprisingly good! I got the kit from agriline, i thought it was quite a snug fit, it brought the level of the bearing up a bit, i need 0.020" of shimage at the top then all wil be well. I have some quite thick gasket paper here so that should do, what stage are you with yours?
Oh yay, look, another seized bolt! Lets get a hammer.....and some kano.....and some cider!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Nick wrote:Thanks for the reply ben, i thought i may have to make my own. I didnt have to re-shim the bottom, it was surprisingly good! I got the kit from agriline, i thought it was quite a snug fit, it brought the level of the bearing up a bit, i need 0.020" of shimage at the top then all wil be well. I have some quite thick gasket paper here so that should do, what stage are you with yours?
Thanks for the info. You must have been lucky with your Agriline kit as they are still getting their current batch machined around the ball race. Apparently the ball race channel is more a V-shape than a round shape like the originals, see below, with the result that they need alot of shimming under the top plate (up to 80thou):
Image

Yours must have been a good one. I gather other suppliers may be having the same problem. So I'm still awaiting a useable repair kit. If need be I'll reuse my old nut with a new race.

The other problem I'm having is getting the shimming right at the bottom. I reduced the total shim thickness from 32thou to 26thou, but I'm not happy with it. When I assemble everything dry, the shaft sticks at a couple of places and I have to gently shake the whole assembly or turn it over to get it to slide again. Maybe it'll work better when oiled?

I note from the workshop manual that "rocker shaft adjustment is by shims between housings to eliminate end-float". Also all the shimming, both top and bottom, is meant to be done with the column removed from the lower box. Practically the last job to be done is to bolt the two together, so maybe I will redo it this way.
Last edited by Bensdexta on Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

russelm
True Blue
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by russelm »

Hi Ben

You need to set the shims so that the end float on the horizontal pins is removed, over do it and you will get tight spots. Mine were spot on but I still re-fitted them with a thin wipe of sealent on all the shim and gasket faces so as to eliminate any potential leak sites.

If you do this, given the angle of cut in the base of the worm shaft, then any slop will have been eliminated. Its also worth wiping some oil on the moving faces in the base of the box before doing this as it gives a more real feel to the setup when trying it and protects the machined faces.

Given where yours is, try a single paper gasket to add a little clearance and re-test it.

I have to admit I filled mine with the original spec hypoid oil and not the later specified engine oil. The reasons being

1) Looking at the setup I deciced that the engine oil was probably a little to thin
2) The hypoid I used had an LSD additive which I have found in the past helps the rubber seals last a lot longer.
3) I suspect that the oil spec was compromised in order to ensure farmers actualy put some in (as they were more likely to have engine oil!)
Mark Russell - 1959 Standard Dexta - Work In Progress!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

OK thanks for the advice. Cleaned everything up spotless, remeasured gap at LH rocker with no shims and column removed as per workshop manual, at about 23thou. Made a 6thou shim with my new Dremel - a good tool:
Image

Oiled all the sliding parts and refitted rocker with 0.5mm (20thou) gasket paper giving total shim of 26thou. Fitted column c/w old nut.
Everything sliding nicely now through full range of movement. :wink:

One question, will the gasket paper change thickness? Worshop manual says a 10thou gasket will compress to 7thou, or is modern paper more stable?

Also anyone know a cheap source of Dremel tools, bits, grinders etc - can see myself using a few?
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Lesfen
True Blue
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Lesfen »

Sunshine, coffee and a new tool to work on the Dexta with :beer: :D !!!!!!!!

Ahhh man Ben, what a day! :mrgreen:

But mostly, thanks for the tutorial on the steering box. Need to go in there myself soon!
All the best
Les

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Yes the sunshine is nice :wink:
Better than my replacement top nut! Just done a trial fit and it will need shimming a total of 68thou :(

Also the shoulder is higher than my original, by about 1/8":
Image
Not sure what the effect of that will be on the steering wheel fitment?

Unfortunately I don't think I can reuse my original nut as the race is badly pitted.

Why can't people make decent parts?? :evil:
Last edited by Bensdexta on Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Aussie Frank
True Blue
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:49 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Aussie Frank »

Hi Ben,

As a work around to get your shim sizes back to more reasonable levels you could use smaller ball bearings and maybe an extra one or two because there would be more room. If your geometry was up to scratch you could calculate the exact diameter difference needed to achive any desired shim size, but my guess is about 40 thou or 1mm smaller would go close to solving your problem with an extra one or maybe even two more balls in the race. If you have a friendly bearing supplier you may even be able to throw a few different sized balls into your steering nut and races on the counter to get the exact size needed.

The other differences you would not be able to do anything about, but it may not create any functional problems, unless of course you need the extra 1/8" clearence to fit into the seat :wink:

Regards. Frank.
Real tractors don't need tin work to be beautiful.

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Thanks Frank, good suggestion :wink:
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

tom lad
True Blue
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:53 pm
Location: Preston, Lancashire. UK.

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by tom lad »

hi ben
i rebuilt mine about a year ago, using a agriline refurb kit .
I honestly didnt notice if the nut had a chamfered edge like youres or the half round like it should be , i set my top nut ,gasket thickness pluss a 2 mm shim which i made .
now with work and use the top nut is alittle lose so will need a thinner shim , ( it was purfect when i did it ) my point is if its alittle bit tight when first assembelled on the bench it may just need to bed in to the other parts ??? :?

i did notice i still had wear / end play between the thread / worm and the nut , but there's nothing we can do about that is thier ?

i noticed that odd little hole in the worm shaft to ... spent a long time un blocking it for nothing :beer:

i think the stearing wheals on dextas get more ebuse than on say a fergie cuz its alittle bit tighter to get on , so ur more inclined to pull on the wheel as u mount / dis mount ???
ive just fitted a foot support /step on the clutch peddal side , like the one on the brake side which i hope will help . I have size 13 boots :lol: poss. not original i dont know ?
hope this helps
tom
Some mornings I wake up grumpy, but most mornings I let her sleep in.

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Thanks All for the advice.

I'v just tried 1/4" bearings from the bike shop as an experiment, but way too small, shim would now be -ve!

So I think I'll follow Frank's suggestion and try some bearings a bit smaller than the OEM 5/16". , maybe 7.5mm which are available, in an effort to reduce the shim thickness a bit. However, it is comforting to hear from Tom that his 2mm shim caused him no problems.

Just got these little beauties from Malcomn Hipperson for £2, sure beats making them! :wink:
Image

Locking tabs for the lower box studs (rectangular) and for the top nut (round).
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

russelm
True Blue
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by russelm »

Sorry for the late replay, I have been playing trains for the last 3 days! :D :clap:

The smaller bearings will result in reduced shims being required so a 7.5mm is probably worth a go (they are cheap thankfuly).

I would also say that the V groove will result in more shim being needed than the concave groove to.

As for the steering wheel, clearly it will sit slightly higher but the bigger worry is that there will be less thread for the top nut to go on.....unless you leave out a washer (not ideal)
Mark Russell - 1959 Standard Dexta - Work In Progress!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

OK, tried the smaller 7.5mm ball bearings and they reduced the shim size to 25thou (from 68thou).
However the nut does not seem to run quite as smoothly as with the 5/16" balls, not quite sure why, may be to do with the shape of the race.

So on balance I think I'll install the bigger balls and live with making up a 68thou shim, which hopefully won't result in any particular problems.
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

OK, finally finished my steering box :D

Visited Agriline and went through their stock of worm nuts till we found a near perfect tight fit. And it's the same height as my original nut. :D

Had to shim it around 2mm but not a problem and steering is working smoothly now. So thanks to Agriline. Just got to get it painted now.
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

bobfaecullen
True Blue
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: SW France

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by bobfaecullen »

Hi All,

I've taken my steering box to bits as I had a huge amount of sideways play on the rocker shafts - somebody has been in there before and been adding shims on the inside of the rocker shaft to try to take up the slack. There is a lot of wear on the bearing surfaces of the rocker shafts, so much in fact that the webs lie close against the steering worm shaft and there is no scope for shimming out the free play.

Image

Has anyone tried getting the bearing surfaces built up and machined to size, as you can see in the picture the shafts are in a sorry state.

Does anyone know the dimensions of the bearing surfaces when they are new ??

Has anyone got a couple of rocker shafts lying around spare that they are willing to sell ??

Bob.

Mervyn Spencer
True Blue
Posts: 830
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: South Africa

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Mervyn Spencer »

Hi Bob

I can help you, but I am a long way from you down in South Africa. I can weigh them and let you know how much you are in for shipping.

Mervyn

bobfaecullen
True Blue
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: SW France

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by bobfaecullen »

Hi Mervyn,

Thanks for the offer - I will hang on to see if I can get something in the UK first of all, if not then I will get back to you.

Nick
True Blue
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Nick »

Ben,
You sure did have problems with that top nut, good job that you live near to their warehouse! I must of either been lucky with mine, or they had sorted the problem before I ordered it.
Anyway, good to hear your all sorted now. Dont know about you, but every job ive done so far on my dexta has been fairly straight forward, apart from the steering, which i thought would be easy!
Oh yay, look, another seized bolt! Lets get a hammer.....and some kano.....and some cider!

Bensdexta
True Blue
Posts: 2666
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: N Wales

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Bensdexta »

Nick wrote:You sure did have problems with that top nut.
Yes I spoke to various suppliers, most of whom said "All the top nuts are the same!" After my experience I can say they are definitely not! :wink:
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

Nick
True Blue
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Nick »

I have to say the difference in your old one and that new one is shocking! the new one i got was exactly the same as my old one ( i measured both with calipers at the important places) and it fits a treat, but i reckon like tomlad says, that in a few months after some use, it will nedd some of the shims taken out because it will have 'worn in'.
Oh yay, look, another seized bolt! Lets get a hammer.....and some kano.....and some cider!

Mark
True Blue
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:13 am
Location: Eastern Kentucky

Re: Steering Box - overhaul or not?

Post by Mark »

Hi Ben, you may want to do like Stefan did to his since you have it in bits. It would just take you a little more time, and you've been working on your Dexta a long time to skimp on this. You can weld it up grind it down a little, then finish with a file. Shim it up proper and your good to go for 50 more years.
Mark
See ya
Mark

When all else fails, get a bigger hammer

Post Reply