Arrrgh Help

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dewaltdisney
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Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

I have been trying to get the lift top off to see if I can fix my stuck control lever see http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/phpbb ... f=3&t=6530
I had enough trouble getting the seat off and I had to cut one of the nuts off as it was stuck. Fortunately I have not damaged the stud.

I next turned to removing the legs from the lift arms and I got one pin out on the left but the other had been put in from the mudguard side and I had to drill a hole in the mudguard to get my puller on it. It would not budge and I noticed it was opening up the gap in the lift arm wishbone so I stopped. I moved on to the pin holding the top link and this was also frozen plus I had nowhere to get a purchase for my puller. I was wondering if I could take the lift arms off easily? Are they on a spline fit and would they come of with a puller?

Looking at it I was wondering if I left the hitch in place whether the lift body would swing on its own axis? I got the idea from this video for a lift device for Massey tractors http://www.nctractorspares.co.uk/hydrau ... 2516-p.asp

Getting a bit desparate now so any advice welcome

Many thanks

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

An update. I have removed the two lift arms which came off quite easily so I have only the pin holding the Main Control Spring on the top link rocker. This has been a right pig and I have heated the yoke with my blow lamp to try to get expansion to help me knock it out. No luck on that.

I have taken all the bolts out of the top now so theoretically it should lift off. No such luck there. My idea is that I can swing it up on the top link using a winch and pulley and tinker around with the linkage inside to see what is happening. I am concerned that the angle of swing will be wrong to clear the oil feed.

So I am asking for ideas to removing the top link, views on swinging it up if the top link remains stuck and how can I free the top as there are no lever points?

Any help gratefully received.

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

The lift arms have to be fully down as the cover has to move backwards to allow the lift to come up. You tend to lift the back up at an angle to ease the lift out.

It is important that you remove that top link pin. I have had the same problem and you need to get the fitting very hot then let it cool. I have tried the candle wax treatment on a couple of items I had to heat to free off and have been surprised how effective it is, far better than easing oil. After you have heated the part and it is cooling, rub a candle around the seized area so the wax melts and runs into it. Let it cool the try hitting it.

The other way is to undo the bolts holding the ram cylinder then lifting the cover and pivoting it back on the rocker. This will get it off and the cylinder out but you will still have to free the pin to get it back.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Thanks Brian, I guess I realised the top pin has to come out. Do you think my plumbers type blow lamp will get enough heat into the top link? It seemed hot but I am not sure how long I should hold it on and what indications to look for. I would appreciate a bit of guidance on that bit and I will try the candle wax method as that sounds logical.

I wonder if the hammer action of my SDS drill might do it if I hold a cover over the pin?

Cheers

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

If you mean one like this! :D I bought a blow torch kit from Machine Mart a long while ago and it has been one of the best tools i have bought, it has got me out of a lot of heating problems, even in the field. Once the part hears that torch start to roar it drops out on its own. :D :D :D

Image

Blow lamp will not get it any thing like hot enough, been there, tried that, bought the torch kit. Thethreaded bit with the pin through needs to be red hot all over, not just in one spot.

Do not think your drill will do the job, a three pound hammer travelling at speed creates a fair bit of force when it lands. You will probably burr the end of the pin but it should go out the other way OK.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Hi Brian, a good friend helped me today as he has the bottle gas blow lamp you have and with the right amount of heat and a club hammer it tapped out fine. We got the top cover off and started seeing what was jammed. Firstly we checked the lift control valve but that moves freely in and out okay. Gave all the joints in the linkage a good squirt of WD40 but it still binding. We have stood down at the moment as we were not sure of the safest method to start disassembly of the linkage. It does seem that the linkage rather than the shaft is jammed as when we undid the four bolt that hold the quadrant on that made the shaft feel loose but the linkage was still stuck.

So my next question is how would you recommend that we proceed as I am not sure what to do next?

I have some photos but I cannot seem to upload them?

Many thanks

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

The linkage pivots on the shaft from the control lever.

Image

As well as the two points on the lever shaft and on the eccentric you may find the draft control spring that slides through the bush on the lever seized or perhaps the Position Control spring and shaft that pushes on the back of the control valve lever.

Image

Image

Another area to check is your control valve itself.

To remove the linkage, Take out the ram cylinder, take off the control lever and quadrant, take off the rod and spring from the Draft control spring by removing the pin where it joins behind the cross shaft. Take off the nut or circlip that holds the control valve arm to the eccentric and this should come off. With the ram cylinder off you may be able to get the arm to lie forward enough to clear the Draft control rod and spring and get that out of the bush. If so you can leave the Draft control rod and spring in the lift.

Disconnect the Draft/Position selector by removing the split pin.

You should then find that you can angle the control lever enough to draw the whole lot clear of the top cover.

Do not forget to check your Position control cam follower pin whilst you have the linkage apart. It is far easier to replace it with the linkage in bits.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Thanks Brian, that has made it a lot clearer. There are so many moving parts in that mechanism it is hard to fathom out the actions and movements to detect a sticking point. With the top cover out it is a clear area to work on but still a bit fiddly. I will let you know how I go on.

Many thanks for your help and guidance

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Well some progress but still struggling.

Took off the Ram cylinder okay. Had trouble getting the quadrant and lever off but got there in the end. With the shaft free there is no apparent reason why the lever will not travel all the way down the quadrant? It moves about two inches of travel and then locks. All the links seem free. Tried to get the main control parts off but the three bolts need some work to free off which will be the next step. I notice that the Qualitrol lever does not stay down now against the spring pressure which it did before we started stripping down.

I found this YouTube video which shows exactly the same symptoms as mine.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1FWaAFyZxU

Grateful for any pointers

Many thanks

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

Does the control valve itself, in the ram cylinder, move freely? If you watch the links as you operate the Draft / Position selector you should see the mechanism that moves the Position Control rod and spring away from the arm that works the control valve. This is an "over centre" mechanism and should lock into place once selected. That is the spring you are feeling when you work the lever.

Image
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Yes, the control valve moves easily. The 3" or so movement on the quadrant I have now would I think be sufficient to operate the lift as the lever presses and releases the valve on its fixed path of movement. I am not so worried about the position control as I never use it. The bit that bugs me is why the lever no longer moves freely like it used to for the whole of the quadrant. I would like to get it fixed while it is all out. I thought originally that the shaft was bound but now it is off it clearly is not that. The pin that rides over the lift cam has a slight flat on it but I cannot see how this pin is fitted, is it just tapped in? Also I cannot find a replacement pin on the internet.

It is just baffling as every joint seems loose. The swivel (the square) seems to slip along but can catch a little on occasions.

I am sure that someone with experience looking at it would spot the fault but I do not have access to a person like that,

Thanks for any help you can give

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Hi Brian,

Thank you so much for your help so far with my lit control problem.

We are visiting my niece in East Dereham on Saturday and I wondered if there was any possibility I could pop in for five minutes so you have a quick look see at my linkage problem. I am not sure if you are anywhere near Dereham but I thought it worth a try to ask. I know it is a big ask but I am sure that five minutes of your expertise will point me in the right direction.

I will obviously not be offended if you cannot do it but it just seemed to good a chance to miss.

Many Thanks

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

Of course you can bring it round, make it late morning as we go shopping about 10 o clock.

We are next to Scarning Church bang opposite Mid Norfolk Canopies and Trailers behing the big conifer hedge.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

That is brilliant Brian, thank you so much. Shall I come about 12pm time or is that too early?

Shall I just bring the top cover as it is without the ram cylinder?

I am looking forward to meeting you

Thanks once again

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

That will be fine, just bring the top cover and linkage, if we need a ram cylinder I have a couple here.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Great I will see you tomorrow.

Many thanks

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

Hi DWD,
Spent so much time talking that I forgot to put the split pin and washer in the Draft/Position selector arm, the one that was so much trouble getting out. Hope you read this before you put the lift back, I saw it as soon as I went back into the workshop but you were out of sight.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

No problem Brian, I do not expect to put the lid back until later in the week so I can put in a new pin and washer.

Thank you so much for yesterday, I really appreciate your sorting out the problem, I am sure I would have been fumbling about for weeks trying to sort it. I will write up a fuller explanation and post it on here just in case it helps someone else in the future who may have the same issue develop. It was a real pleasure to meet you and your patient explanation to all my questions was very much appreciated.

Thank you once again

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Hi again Brian,

My plans to change the oil have turned into another nightmare. I have been struggling underneath to get the drain plug undone and with the limited space and movement room I have so far failed. I took the brake bracket bolts out and dropped the draw bar a bit which has given me access to the plug. It is a square head plug and I have been trying to undo it with my plumber type adjustable wrench. No joy, an I am fearful of damaging the square head.

Is there a way of draining most the oil out of another place like the PTO or that cover plate on the side that has a big nut on it? I was getting desperate and was considering sucking the oil out with my wet vac but that probably would ruin the vac and not work. I have not put the top back yet as I wanted to make it easy to pout the new oil in.

Sadly the tractor is too big to get it in my boot to pop up to see you :lol:

Many thanks

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

I have found an oil suction gun which I think is worth a try for a tenner. At least I can use it to change the oil on my lawn mower if it does not work. Fingers crossed.

DWD

Brian
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by Brian »

That plug has a tapered thread and, if it has been really tightened up, it can be a so and so to undo. Suction pump should be OK as you have the top off otherwise undo the four bolts and slip the PTO shaft out.
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dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Thanks Brian, I got the oil suction device today and although it will be quite a tedious job it is a far easier option than struggling to get the plug out. With the top off it will be much easier to use the suction gun than poking it in the filler hole and also less chance of a load of oil ending up on the floor.

Thank you once again

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

The suction device worked well and once I got into the rhythm I soon got it drained. When I filled it up to the indicator plug level it took nearly 20 litres so I am sure I got most of the old oil out. Clearly there was insufficient oil in there to start with as I only emptied around 10 litres or so I reckon this was one reason the linkage got seized. There are no leaks and the lift worked perfectly well before the control lever froze so it s a mystery. My pal is coming this evening to help with reassembly. I have printed the page from the Wiki area and I will check the settings today. I feel like I am finally getting there :clap:

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Hopefully the end to this particular saga, It is all back together and firing up the engine with fingers crossed I pulled the control lever and up the arms went easily lifting my friends son who was standing on the lift arms. Phewwww.

I have learned a lot through this process and I hope that this thread might help others who might develop a similar problem. Here are some thoughts from my experience:

You need friends to help you when you really do not know what you are doing
The free download manual is helpful but it is hard relating the part names to the instructions
Undoing rust frozen pins needs a lot of heat and patience
The lift top is bloody heavy so make sure you have a winch or a lift to help. You might be able to lift it off with two people but you certainly will not be able to manoeuvre it back without a hoist
The linkage mechanism is quite complex but all the joints need to move freely. I was lucky in being able to take my top to Brian who quickly had it sorted ...thank you again Brian
The oil drainage plug is a pig to remove. if you cannot shift it an oil suction gun Screwfix £10) gets you out of trouble although it is very tedious. You can easily dip the tube in the filler plug to suck the oil out if you have not got the top off.
The after market gasket was good but the O rings were a hotch potch mix and we had to leave some old ones in although they looked in good nick.
When you are putting the top back on you have to tilt the back up so the ram cylinder end tucks under the housing lip before you can drop it in place.Aligning the bolt holes without moving the gasket is tricky but with a couple of guide pins and gentle nudging it went into place perfectly.
Copper grease all pins that were hard to pull off.
Check your oil level regularly , it is clearly important to have the right level in as the splash lubricates the linkage. (Being slack was where I went wrong and I should have changed the oil some years ago)

One steep learning curve for me but my Dexta is happy again

Cheers all

DWD

dewaltdisney
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Re: Arrrgh Help

Post by dewaltdisney »

Well I finally found a window of opportunity to cut my fields in between rain and storms in this English summer. I got my Dexta hitched up to my topper and the lift arms lifted it effortlessly with a smooth movement. The freedom of movement on the lift control lever I now have allows for micro adjustments as I go and when turning it is easy to lift the mower enough whilst the prop shaft is turning to pull a tight turn. Four and a half hours of work and not a falter. I would like to feel pleased with myself for getting it fixed but I could not have done it without the help of my friend Ash and Brian.

What a great community this site is and it is wonderful to see so many Fordsons kept in running order through the help of others

Thanks all for reading this thread

DWD

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