Low oil pressure and some water temperature

[alang]

I fitted an oil pressure sensor and light last winter, having previously fitted a new temperature gauge in 2007. The gauge never moved off the rest post - just like a previous one I fitted (they worked in a boiling pan of water). I read somewhere that these replacements gauges were unreliable so gave up on them.

Up until now everything has been OK with the oil pressure and she doesn't overheat or use water. I did a 40 mile road run a few weeks ago and the light was off all the time, except for absolute idle when really hot, which I accept as normal. The temperature gauge was just acting as an ornament.

I mowed 7 acres at the weekend with my old Hayter 3 rotor mower (3rd gear low ratio in whispy grass), like I do every year. Two things happened; after about 3 acres I noticed the temperature gauge had climbed and was holding in the orange band, also the oil pressure light started to flickered. After leaving her to cool down I mowed again for another 2 acres had to pause and so on.

I will change the oil as that is due - It was a very hot day - the mower gearbox seems as looses as it's always been.

Am I missing something or am I asking too much of the old girl and have I just been lucky in the past

Cheers
Alan

[Emiel]

Hello Alan,

Are you sure your thermostat is works correctly? When the gauge works in a pan with boiling water, it should also work in your tractor I think.

About the oil pressure, make sure your oil filter is OK and the right oil is in. May be the pressure switch is also a little sensible, which give earlier alarm as needed.

Best regards

Emiel

[Brian]

You got her working Alan! The road runs will not even get her warmed up!

On a 5' topper in a good crop of grass, Dotty gets the tempreture gauge into the bottom of the red and runs there happily. Her gauge too is a replacement. They could be a bit on the low side with the markings.

On the spring tine harrow, the gauge stays in the blue. My gauge is marked orange, blue, red with the red starting at 175 degrees. Henrietta runs at 180 degrees so I allow some leeway on Dotty.

What oil are you running? I am starting to wonder a bit about the 15/40W being too thin. I say this because I use a Kochler engine on the rotovator. I have had two crankshafts fail over the years which have required "new" engines. I run these on the same oil as the tractors.

My latest unit oils the plug when in work on 15/40W and I noticed Halfords did an oil for engines of the 1950's and 60's so I got her some of that. The change has been a little dramatic. Plug fouling has disappeared and oil usage has dropped. I know its not on a tractor but it made me think.

On 15/40W Henrietta's oil pressure drops to around 10 psi at low revs but goes up to 20psi when reving. This is with a nearly new crank and bearings. On the same oil Nuffy runs happily at around 50 psi.

I would expect your oil light to flicker, when hot, at tickover but it might be an idea to put a gauge on her when you have her really hot.

[alang]

Emile,
The switch is new, but I'm starting to question the quality of most replacement stuff.

I like the idea of fitting an oil pressure gauge and did ask for advice on the old forum. If you, or anyone, can suggest a suitable oil pressure gauge please say. The Fergie TE20 pressure gauge goes down to 'low' when hot, but at least I have a visual aid with that and am able to judge when enough is enough.

Brian,
Peace of mind on the water front so thanks for that. It is however an indication that she is working hard and that the oil may be inadequate. I'm using 'Morris Super Farm Universal 10/30W' - what grade do you suggest - I will get her the very best.

Cheers
Alan



Cheers
Alan

[Brian]

I am doing some investigation into oils for my ladies, at the moment so will post what I find. Meanwhile I am sticking with 15/40W.

Personally I would be using a 20/30W in a Dexta Diesel and not one of the more modern oils. I would suspect Super Farm Universal contains additives for eliminating brake sqeak in oil immersed brakes and that is bad for our tractors. Morris's is a very good oil and I would check what else they have on offer for older engines.

[alang]

Brian,

I will await post after your research into "oils for my ladies".

We haven't got our forums mixed up have we??

Cheers
Alan

[Emiel]

Hello Alan,

About the quality of replacement parts the views are very different between all people I hear talking about it.

What I can say about oil pressure switches, is that some years ago we had an oil leak through the sensor fitted on our 5610 genII tractor. Replaced that one with an "original" NewHolland sensor and it worked OK. No leaks, light on when engine off and light off when engine ran. About 5 years later tractor sold, and the swicht was still OK. (Of course the rest of the tractor too).

Also thermostats, fan belts, filters, gaskets, fuel taps etc I bought directly from the CNH dealer were good quality. Parts used for Ford engine on combine, Fordson tractors, Ford 1000 series and above 5610. Prices were reasonable too in our opinion.

We run 15W40 Ambra engine oil in all our equipment (exept E27N) without any troubles so far. Modern oils clean out engines thorougly compared to the older oils. This can cause clogged filters and oil passage channels. This may be result in low oil pressure. Usually the temperature stability of modern oils is so that it will not get very thin when hot, compared to the oils specified for these tractors. We had some oil pressure troubles with our Hanomag tractor after filling up new oil. These were solved by cleaning the filter a couple of times (no replaceable filter fitted to this tractor).

So what I can say, original CNH parts, for as far as available, are good/reasonable quality in our opinion. We use them mainly because the dealer is near and provides good service. Off course this only reflect our experiences, but we may only be lucky untill now.

Fitting a good oil pressure gauge is the best way to check your oil pressure and find out whether your switch is OK or not. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the suppliers in your area, but I think a good oldtimer supply store (for rally cars for example) must be able to supply something usefull.

Best regards

Emiel

[Brian]

Alan,
Check out the Morris of Shrewsbury web site. You will find that the oil you are using is an extremely high detergent oil for modern tractors engine, transmissions and hydraulics.

You might be far better with one from the XHD range. They offer single viscosity oils for older vehicles. I would go for the 30W myself.

[alang]

Emile,
I do have to look for economy parts, but I still expect them to work. I suppose it's like everything else... you get what you pay for.
For the Dexta I purchased a fuel primer system, the water gauge and the oil sensor - the fuel primer system problems I have already written about, the water gauge seems to only operate when really worked and the oil pressure switch I first got was open circuit. To be fair the supplier is willing to replace them. In fact I got the impression on more than one occasion that they have to do this all the time and that they accept that only a percentage of the parts work 100%. I have better luck with comparable Fergie parts for some reason.

Brian,

Looked at their site as you suggested, but could not see a reference to "XHD range".

I shall take your recomendation which I believe is the 30W as below...
.

Many thanks again for the help,
Cheers
Alan

[Bensdexta]

For the Dexta I purchased a fuel primer system, the water gauge and the oil sensor - the fuel primer system problems I have already written about, the water gauge seems to only operate when really worked and the oil pressure switch I first got was open circuit. To be fair the supplier is willing to replace them.

May I ask where you got your parts from? At least your supplier seems to operate a 'no quibbles' returns policy, which is good.

I've found Agriline good regarding returns. They sent me a replacement exhaust manifold and didn't ask for the duff one back.
Hope you get sorted.
Ben

[alang]

Ben,
I agree about Agriline and having visited them they seem a very genuine outfit. Then again I'm struggling to think of anyone who hasn't been willing to swap faulty parts.
Working at their margins I guess we are their Quality Control - it isn't good but I tend to accept it because of the price. I don't want these guys to pack-up, I believe they do their best.
Regards
Alan

[Emiel]

Hello Alan,

Emile,
I do have to look for economy parts, but I still expect them to work. I suppose it's like everything else... you get what you pay for.

Hello Alan,

I think we all have to do economy shopping. Advantage you have over there is that there are plenty suppliers of parts over there, compared to our situation. Here in Holland we have only two suppliers, for as far as I know, who have prices in the same level as NH has, is my experience. They also do mail order, so it takes longer and I have to pay the mail too.

In England parts are cheaper at this moment for us, due to the exchange rates, but shipping lifts the prices up to the same level. It is also not easy to compare parts availability and prices between here and over there.

Best regards

Emiel

[Brian]

You always have the England/Holland Road Train Emiel. That gets there at least twice a year!

[Emiel]

Additional advantage is that its far more in time than we are used to with the dutch railway companies.

[alang]

Emile,
What would be good would be for forum members to be able to comment on parts they have purchased - like a database we could all refer to. However, that could have implications for Oscar both logistically and legally.
Poor example...

Cheers
Alan

[Bensdexta]

What would be good would be for forum members to be able to comment on parts they have purchased - like a database we could all refer to. However, that could have implications for Oscar both logistically and legally.

That's a good idea; it would be very useful.
To avoid legal problems, it would be safe to itemise parts/suppliers with whom we have had a happy experience.
So members making prospective purchases can view the 'good boys' list first.
Ben

[aldo]

.........................the water gauge seems to only operate when really worked..........................

Alan, I'm just thinking, have you checked your thermostat to see if its working, and not stuck open. When I took my old thermostat out, and ran her with no thermostat for a few months, she would hardly register on the temp gauge, and would take along time to even get to that stage. With the new thermostat, she now gets to operating temp within a few minutes. If your thermostat is working properly, then she should get to operating temp even when not working hard, after all, thats what the thermostat is for.

[alang]

Aldo,
Ok that makes sense. Am I right that a new thermostat may cure the temperature gauge reading problem but wont help with the low oil pressure? If not I'll leave a new thermostat for the next refurbishment session in the Autumn.
Thanks for the help.
Alan

[aldo]

I would guess that there's nothing wrong with your temp gauge. The problem is that your engine is running cold - its not good to run an engine cold -it needs to be at operating temp (roughly 90 degrees Celcius I think). That's why we have multigrade oils - it gives good lubrication until the engine (and oil) warms up.
The thermostat will help your engine run at the right temp. Changing the thermostat is a simple quick job.

The low oil pressure might just be a symptom of old age - worn bearings. The different grades of oil really only make a difference with cold starts. Lower grades are better for lubrication when the oil is cold. Once the oil gets hot, all oils are much much thinner - and so pressure will be lost if your bearings are a bit worn.

That said, a higher grade of oil might help a bit - over here I would try a 20W/50, but I don't see that mentioned over there. The 20 will be thin enough for the cold start, and the 50 might give you slightly better pressure at operating temp when the oil is hot.

Just another thought, maybe your low running temp (with no thermostat control) has been concealing you oil pressure problem -because your oil usually doesn't get really hot, its been staying thick enough to keep the oil pressure up.

[The Swanndri Guy]

Has anyone else had the experience of fitting a "new" thermostat that was faulty?( it open fully in hot water in a jug, but never opened fully when installed on the tractor, so when the engine on the 3000 was loaded up it would go into the red on the temperature gauge.The solution to my problem was to fit a new CNH thermostat.)Cherrs TSG.

[Brian]

I think we could discus this subject until the cows come home! I would apply the old engineers answer. "When all else fails, read the instruction book."

Our tractors were designed to run on specific grades of oil. This was modified by Ford over the years. The book states, for the English climate, HD30W or HD20/30W. This is for all the conditions found over here. So if the engine is getting worn, a 15/40W will flow more easily than the recommended oil and perhaps reduce the oil pressure.

As Aldo says, wear must also come into it and allowances for this must be made when diagnosing problems.

I disagree with Aldo when he says all oils are similar when hot because I see the changes in Henrietta's oil pressure when I use different oils. And she gets HOT. Far hotter than any of the diesel engines.

I have also experienced, just recently, a colleaque using a top quality multiuse oil in an IH B414. The oil proved too light at 10/30W and she ran the bearings on the crank. He is an expert mechanic with many years experience but was told that the oil was OK for that tractor by the supplier.

Because I have had good experiences with it, I always use Wynns additive in my engines. Why? Because at one time, Ford recommended it in the tractors and it seemed to work. I have been doing that for forty plus years and have put mileage of over 300,000 on a Mondeo and 600,000 on a Sierra.

I do agree that the thermostat should be investigated. These should be readily available but quality might be a problem in the cheaper ones.

But if the CNH one is twice the price and you have to fit three of another make to get one to operate correctly, which works out cheaper?

When I worked in the dealership we were always told that the reason Ford parts were more expensive was because Ford had to honour the warranty on them and so over specified them, so reducing the warranty problems. This was certainly the case with batteries, where a Ford battery would outlast other quality makes by some years. Even batteries from the companies who made them for Ford. I have experienced this time and time again but do not know if it is the same in the modern world.

[aldo]

Yes, I could have put it in better words.
What I was trying to say is that all oils become much thinner when they get to operating temp. So a 15 grade oil when cold is thicker compared to a hot 40 grade oil (at the same temp, the 15 will be thinner, have a lower viscosity), So yes, at operating temp, 30W will be thinner than 40W.

[alang]

Fair do's.
I 'm going for the 30W and change the thermostat asap.
Cheers
Alan

[skipdow]

when it comes to oil and what best to use and why , I've gotten a wealth of info from bob is the oil guy
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
they seem to do a lot of tests and explain why a particular oil is better for each situation.
I was really interested in the article about oils with moly added and they comment how oils have changed drastically over the years and what was good yesterday might not be good anymore(because of additives removed)