6 cyl sump

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6 cyl sump

Postby d.andersen » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:45 pm

Hi
I am working on a 6 cyl conv. and
I was just wondering , if someone in here have made their own sump for the 590 engine.

because i would like to know why some of you write that you have to use tree 4cyl cast sumps , isint 2 enough????
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby frode » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:43 pm

if you put them side by side, and offset them to make up the length of the 6-cylinder, you will see why. Welding cast-iron is one thing, welding cast-iron when nothing matches is another :)
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby d.andersen » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:02 pm

ok, have you made such a conv. ? is there need of any modifications to the suction pipe
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby frode » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:54 pm

d.andersen wrote:ok, have you made such a conv. ? is there need of any modifications to the suction pipe


I am putting a 2700 series engine in mine. The oil pump and suction is different from the 590.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby 1962 model » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:24 am

Hello,
I am considering which way to go with my sump also, at this stage I want to raise the rear portion of the sump and add webs to mount the A frame pin, ( this pin is larger for the Super Major models )

Image

I don't know why these pictures are so large, they are getting messed up!

I have worked out that it will be easier to get the Aluminum sump welded than try to mess around with the cast Iron ones which apart from being difficult to weld, don't line up with several of the holes anyway.

The webs I am going to add will be about 30 mm thick and have flanged steel bushes to take the wear and side loads.

The rear web will be placed against the flywheel cover part of the housing and this will be reinforced to take any shock loadings.

The lower part of the flywheel cover is too short as the Aluminum sump is round and the Fordson is oval, this gives me more scope to strengthen this area too.

This is the sump from a Class header, the Thames Trader onesI have seen have longditudinal ribbing in the rear portion.

Of course shrinkage from all the welding will be a Major consideration so the order in which welding is made will be carefully looked at, and I will be bolting it to the engine block to keep it straight, might even pack it so it bends backwards a little?

Maybe some day something similar to my Idea, might be made in Aluminum to keep costs down, ( if there is enough interest? )

Mike
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Aussie Frank » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:23 pm

Hi All.

The question of 6 cylinder sumps seems to come up so often in this forum I thought I might ask a good friend of mine who happens to be a pattern maker what he thinks it would cost to make a pattern to cast a new 6 cylinder sump that would take the standard A frame and bolt to a 590E motor in a Fordson. My thoughts were to cast them in steel so they could be welded if necessary. Also if people could supply photos of the county 6 cylinder sump it could be cast in the same style. Initially I would need photos of a 6 cylinder sump inside and out a 4 cylinder sump from a Fordson inside and out and as many photos of a county sump from the outside at least as possible.

If anybody is interested "PM" me photos and contact details and I will pass the information on to my friend. It may well turn out too expensive to do, but given the need it seems well worth asking the question. I have had him make several paterns for me in the past and if you want more details I can provide photos and details via email so long as you "PM" your details if anybody wants.

I do not want any finacial gain out of this, apart from maybe being able to twist my friends arm a little for the next job I want him to do for me because of the extra work I sent his way :wink: I can however vouch for his work, the parts he has made for me are all top notch and surprisingly cheap per unit if more than one or two are made.

Regards, Frank.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Grani » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:06 am

Here a picture of two different 590E sump models.
Image
Image
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby janus » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:36 pm

hello, here a picture of iron cast sump, with hinge point for front axle of 6 cyl

sorry for the bad quality of the pictures, i'll try to take better ones, soon

http://s1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff3 ... rw68-1.jpg

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by janus on Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby csvper » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:25 pm

hello to all

first post after just viewing for some time.
thought i would post to add that i have a cast sump on my super major which i made from 3 4cyl sumps welded together.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby d.andersen » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:09 pm

Aussie Frank

it could be very interesting if your friend could make cast 6d sumps :D :clap:
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby sandymac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:04 pm

I have a super 6 sump in my garage just now, is it of any help to show a picture?
Sandy
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby frode » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:04 pm

csvper wrote:hello to all

first post after just viewing for some time.
thought i would post to add that i have a cast sump on my super major which i made from 3 4cyl sumps welded together.


Can you please put up a couple of pictures of this? :)
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Aussie Frank » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:18 am

sandymac wrote:I have a super 6 sump in my garage just now, is it of any help to show a picture?
Sandy

Hi Sandy,

The more pictures of real 6 cylinder Fordson sumps the better. That way the internal detail can be made right as well. The patern itself will be very simple as it will not need any cores as far as I can see. There is no need to cast the hole for the front axle support as this can be machined during the final machining operation.

I already mentioned the project to my friend and he didnt think it would be a difficult job. The method used for casting will depend on numbers though. When I get your pictures Sandy I will get an estimate of cost and let every one know what it is. Then all I will need to do is get a 6 cylinder and a standard Fordson sump to him for the flange dimensions and bolt hole positions and that will be it, provided the numbers are right.

Regards, Frank.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby sandymac » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:07 pm

Frank, i do not think the super 6 sump would be of much use for this project as there is no provision for the A frame pivot bolt..

Sandy
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby csvper » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:11 pm

frode wrote:
csvper wrote:hello to all

first post after just viewing for some time.
thought i would post to add that i have a cast sump on my super major which i made from 3 4cyl sumps welded together.


Can you please put up a couple of pictures of this? :)

Image
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby JC » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:30 am

Nice job on the sump, csvper. What did you weld it with?

You almost got that picture posted on your first try. You just had too many img. tags. There should only be one on each end, like this: [img]http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m490/csvper/015.jpg[/img]
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby csvper » Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:44 pm

Thanks for sorting the photo, it took me ages to set up a photo bucket account and i didn't think it worked so i gave up.

Welded the sump with cast rods,cut the sections with a 9 inch angle grinder.

Did this 20 years ago so i think its strong.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Steven B » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:16 am

Aussie Frank wrote:Hi All.

The question of 6 cylinder sumps seems to come up so often in this forum I thought I might ask a good friend of mine who happens to be a pattern maker what he thinks it would cost to make a pattern to cast a new 6 cylinder sump that would take the standard A frame and bolt to a 590E motor in a Fordson. My thoughts were to cast them in steel so they could be welded if necessary. Also if people could supply photos of the county 6 cylinder sump it could be cast in the same style. Initially I would need photos of a 6 cylinder sump inside and out a 4 cylinder sump from a Fordson inside and out and as many photos of a county sump from the outside at least as possible.

If anybody is interested "PM" me photos and contact details and I will pass the information on to my friend. It may well turn out too expensive to do, but given the need it seems well worth asking the question. I have had him make several paterns for me in the past and if you want more details I can provide photos and details via email so long as you "PM" your details if anybody wants.

I do not want any finacial gain out of this, apart from maybe being able to twist my friends arm a little for the next job I want him to do for me because of the extra work I sent his way :wink: I can however vouch for his work, the parts he has made for me are all top notch and surprisingly cheap per unit if more than one or two are made.

Regards, Frank.


Frank

I would be interested in a sump. I have an engine block and crank that can be used to build up the template as well as Thames Traded sumps and a ruined crank shaft.

Steve
65 County Super Six. 62 Super Major x 2, 62 Super Dexta, 52 E1ADKN Industrial Crane, Thames Trader trucks coming out my ears. Two D Series trucks.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Steven B » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:22 am

Grani wrote:Here a picture of two different 590E sump models.
Image


The sump on the left is from the Thames Trader Forward Control (Cab over Engine). These have a centre well. and can be found on industrial engines.
The sump on the right is from the Thames Trader Normal Control (Conventional cab ). These have a front well.
Some industrial engines have a rear well sump and some a long centre well..
65 County Super Six. 62 Super Major x 2, 62 Super Dexta, 52 E1ADKN Industrial Crane, Thames Trader trucks coming out my ears. Two D Series trucks.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby super6 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:09 pm

just thought i would mention that a thames trader sump will not fit on the newer 6cylinder engines from a ford d series or cargo, so you would need to check before any casting took place.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Steven B » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:03 pm

super6 wrote:just thought i would mention that a thames trader sump will not fit on the newer 6cylinder engines from a ford d series or cargo, so you would need to check before any casting took place.


Frank

I also have a 2000E 360 block and sump for a template.

Steve
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Aussie Frank » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:00 pm

Steven B wrote:
super6 wrote:just thought i would mention that a thames trader sump will not fit on the newer 6cylinder engines from a ford d series or cargo, so you would need to check before any casting took place.


Frank

I also have a 2000E 360 block and sump for a template.

Steve


Hi Steve,

I don't know what the differences between the 2000E and the 590E are so I can not say if the block and sump would help people that are trying to fit a 590E engine into a Major. The way I see it though all that is required is a standard 4 cylinder sump and any 590E sump for the bolt pattern onto the block. The front of the 4 and 6 cylinder sump has to be the same for the wishbone fitting and the rear has to be the same as the 4 cylinder too, it just needs stretching in the middle.

You may be able to help out though, even if it were a 4 cylinder sump that you could loan me. Son number 1 lives in Gisborne and I am there on a regular basis. Tonight was a delivery of fire wood. Anybody that lends any parts toward this project will get them back as they will only be required to make the CAD drawings.

Regards, Frank.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby 1962 model » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:18 pm

Hello again,
my sump at the beginning of this topic, is from a Class combine, just as a reminder.
It is also worth remembering that any casting based on an original 4cyl design requires allowance for a different location oil pick up location and needs to be based on the Super Major sump, not the earlier ones as the A frame pin increased in size in the last models so enough material needs to be there to do both pin sizes.

Also please note that the 6 cyl oil pump is physically larger so requires a deeper pocket in the sump and more pipe clearance than the 4cyl one, I doubt that a 4cyl front section would have enough clearance.

Mike
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby kuutossuperi » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:06 pm

sandymac wrote:I have a super 6 sump in my garage just now, is it of any help to show a picture?
Sandy


I would like to see what the original super six sump looks like. This is something that should be casted as well :D

( By the way, is this sump from your super six or is it an extra one???? I am still one sump short.))
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Re: 6 cyl sump

Postby Aussie Frank » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:00 am

1962 model wrote:Hello again,
my sump at the beginning of this topic, is from a Class combine, just as a reminder.
It is also worth remembering that any casting based on an original 4cyl design requires allowance for a different location oil pick up location and needs to be based on the Super Major sump, not the earlier ones as the A frame pin increased in size in the last models so enough material needs to be there to do both pin sizes.

Also please note that the 6 cyl oil pump is physically larger so requires a deeper pocket in the sump and more pipe clearance than the 4cyl one, I doubt that a 4cyl front section would have enough clearance.

Mike


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the info on the super Vs normal pin size. That is very helpfull. As for the oil pump clearence I figured that since csvper was able to weld 3 Fordson 4 cylinder sumps together to make a 6 cylinder one it should clear. but still worth checking.

Something you may be able to help with though, do you know if the fordson 4 cylinder oil pickup fits onto the 6 cylinder? If it did it would make the whole design a little easier as we would only have to allow for one type rather than a multitude of different ones.

Hi Steve,

Do you have a 4 cylinder sump lying around for me to have a look at too? If you don't mind me popping around to check out the parts you do have PM your contact details to me so that we can arrange a visit.

Regards, Frank.
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