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Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:05 am
by Steven B
Aussie Frank wrote:
1962 model wrote:Hello again,
my sump at the beginning of this topic, is from a Class combine, just as a reminder.
It is also worth remembering that any casting based on an original 4cyl design requires allowance for a different location oil pick up location and needs to be based on the Super Major sump, not the earlier ones as the A frame pin increased in size in the last models so enough material needs to be there to do both pin sizes.

Also please note that the 6 cyl oil pump is physically larger so requires a deeper pocket in the sump and more pipe clearance than the 4cyl one, I doubt that a 4cyl front section would have enough clearance.

Mike


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the info on the super Vs normal pin size. That is very helpfull. As for the oil pump clearence I figured that since csvper was able to weld 3 Fordson 4 cylinder sumps together to make a 6 cylinder one it should clear. but still worth checking.

Something you may be able to help with though, do you know if the fordson 4 cylinder oil pickup fits onto the 6 cylinder? If it did it would make the whole design a little easier as we would only have to allow for one type rather than a multitude of different ones.

Hi Steve,

Do you have a 4 cylinder sump lying around for me to have a look at too? If you don't mind me popping around to check out the parts you do have PM your contact details to me so that we can arrange a visit.

Regards, Frank.


Sorry Farnk no 4cyl tractor sumps spare.

As to the oil pump, later 4 cyl engines have the same pump as 6s. Early sumps do differ in the oil pump area. You need a Power Major or later sump.

Steve

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:25 am
by Grani
Steven B wrote:
As to the oil pump, later 4 cyl engines have the same pump as 6s. Early sumps do differ in the oil pump area. You need a Power Major or later sump.

Steve

According to my experience the later 4cyl pump has the integrated pressure valve but the gears are narrower than on the 6 cyl pump and therefore the flow is less than on the 6 cyl pump.
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Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:46 am
by Steven B
Grani wrote:
Steven B wrote:
As to the oil pump, later 4 cyl engines have the same pump as 6s. Early sumps do differ in the oil pump area. You need a Power Major or later sump.

Steve

According to my experience the later 4cyl pump has the integrated pressure valve but the gears are narrower than on the 6 cyl pump and therefore the flow is less than on the 6 cyl pump.
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You may be right Grani. I just checked the part numbers. I will look tomorrow as I am assembling a Super Major engine. I will fit up a six cylinder pump and see if it fits into the sump.

I do know the later sumps have a much deeper pump well.

Steve

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:54 am
by Aussie Frank
Hi Steve,

Take some photos of the inside and outside of the super sump for me if you can.

Regards, Frank.

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:57 pm
by 1962 model
Hi,
Mike here again, the pick ups I have here vary between the 4 and the 6 in two ways firstly the bends are different because of the longer pump and secondly my sump well is in the middle, perhaps the 6cyl sump with the well at the front might be closer?

I do not wish to use a Aluminum sump with the well at the front because of steering track rod clearance issues.
I also intend to lengthen my A frame so that it will mount close to the flywheel cover section so it has maximum strength, I figure that to mount it to an aluminum sump in the middle might lead to problems of sump damage due to compression forces through the whole rear half of the sump, afterall it is the A frame sump mount that takes the thrust forces when they occurr!


Mike

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:48 pm
by janus
hello

i you look at the next pictures you can see that, there were used different parts for a 4 cilinder oil pump, and a 6 cilinder oil pump, the shaft - the gear - the body - and the pipe ( they have different part numbers)

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Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:49 pm
by rok25
I think I have some interresting information found in my documentation concerning your project.
It seems that the sump (and engine block) have been modified during production and you should make the latest version which is retrofitable to older blocks ,to avoid problems.
Abstract from German Service Bulletins:

Note dated 20 April 1965: Introduced in production from 10 August 1964,the oil pan mounting bolts have been reinforced,exept the two bolts near the oil pump at the front of the sump.The new bolt (N° 20388-S2) has a 3/8" diameter (9,53mm) and a spring washer.The two smaller bolts have a 5/16" diameter(7,94mm).

Note dated 28 June 1965: The current production engine is only delivered with the 3/8" oil pan mounting bolts.Only the new corresponding gasket is still supplied.To mount a new sump on an older block,a special stepped bolt (from 3/8" to 5/16") is supplied.

An important thing to take also into account,is the fact that the axis of the "A" frame is not parallel to the sump gasket plane (or to the cranckshaft axis if it is clearer?).The axis and so the pin hole in the the sump has a 2° slope.This is the way they have achieved the castor angle of the front axle instead of inclining the king pins themselves.See the drawing from the service manual below.

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And as someone has said earlier,you should not use an early 4cyl sump as a template as the oil pump casted pocket is smaller than the later ones because of the lack of oil relief valve on the pump. Also they don't have a timing hole in the bellhousing.Plus the smaller pin hole.The oil drain plug is also different but that doesn't really matter.

And try not to put the oil dipstick in front of a mounting bolt as can be seen on the pictures sent by janus.As far as I can see,it has prevented the use of that bolt.But you must copy the picture in an other file to see it entirely.

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:43 am
by BearCreek Majors
Hi guys, the weather’s been dreary so I finally took the time to post some pics of the County Super Six oil pan.
On the bottom rear of the pan it has a “stacked pan” arrangement, this is for clearance of the tie rod. If making a pan for other than the Countys I would make this area one big squareish box.

We got caught off guard this year as my Uncle Vic had plow days a week early and we only had the Selene ready to go. It wasn’t a very nice day but by the end we had close to a dozen tractors and still had fun. It would have been nice to have the Countys ready to go, I may have procrastinated a little to long getting started at them…..not real sure though……how about I get back to you on that.

Pat


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Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:41 am
by Aussie Frank
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the drawings and pictures of the County sump Janus and Pat. The ruler beside the pictures is especially helpfull as I will be able to find out if there is a foundry that will cast a part that size and a rough cost from the pictures. From there we will all know if casting new sumps is even sensible.

Regards, Frank.

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:52 am
by 1962 model
Hello all,
Just picked up another engine the other day the sump on it is different again having the sump at the front like the later K series ( unless it is an early K series ) This red engine colour matches the colour of the K series engines.

I am not sure what colour the 1960 Thames Trader engine was as the ones I have are unpainted and only have the red oxide block sealing paint so may have been replacement blocks?

This one was only 4 1/2 hours from home,


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Sump is deeper than the others though,

Block is dated Jan 1965, this sump suits the trucks with the full length bonnet, cab over types have the sump in the middle from my limited experience,

Mike

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:01 pm
by d.andersen
here is my home made sump made of tree 4 cyl sumps

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Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:57 am
by Pascal
Wow, that looks great!
May be you can make a model/mould from it and sell it commercially? I would buy one. ;-)

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:39 pm
by Jesper
I would buy one as well :D

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:29 pm
by d.andersen
thank you for the kind words , maybe I should :)


I found out that the oilsuction pibe , had to be modified it was a litle to long to fit inside the "4cyl" oil sump. but it is now fitted on the engine/tractor and everything works nice. :clap:

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:55 am
by neilarmo
anyone seen this? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COUNTY-ROADLE ... 2567e5842a

No crankshaft though. I've seen sumps go for not much less.

n

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:01 pm
by d.andersen
is that not a alu sump ?

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:26 pm
by neilarmo
Yes it looks like an alloy sump. Thought someone might be interested in the other bits?

Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:47 pm
by Major Mike
Hello, an interesting topic. Here also few alloy sumps :
Cargo & Custom trucks, sorry bad quality pic :oops:
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Custom 6,Trader 6 alloy and Major 4 cast iron sump
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Re: 6 cyl sump

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:23 pm
by Ford 5095
Hi,
I'm working on a 6 cylinder conversion.
Does someone have a picture of a welded oil sump?

Regards Simon