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This and that about Ford 590E engines.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:32 am
by Grani
Hello Brian, and others. As You perhaps already know my main interest is the Ford 590 E engine. I have five of them. Do You know any interesting links or do you have any books or other information about the engine and the history of the time at Ford factory when the 590 E engine was under development. The fact that it fits to a Major gearbox was perhaps a plan for a stronger engine but they never produced a Major with it, only Roadless, County and some other did. The Thames Trader got the 590 E but was it because the engine already was in production or was it meant for the Thames Trader from the beginning. How was the Thames Trader and the Fordson connection at the factory when they used the same parts? The 590 E was sold as industrial engine for many applications with the serial number beginning with a S. The problem now with the S is that the number after it is not listed anywhere, or is it? Is the S stamped on spare engines or spare blocks as well?
These an many more questions is on my mind and I hope you or some one here can help me gather as much information as possible about the 590 E history. Thanks in advance. Grani

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:37 pm
by Pascal
Hi Grani,

Good subject! :clap:
I am curious what information you will find! I am thinking of putting one for my SuperMajor. So I am interested too. :)

On my search I have found the follwing website: http://www.mark.clubaustin.co.uk/engines.htm
In their online shop theu have quite some manuals. But they are pretty expensive, I think.
http://www.ekmpowershop5.com/ekmps/shop ... d-67-c.asp

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:17 pm
by Brian
The 590E was a truck engine for the Trader range.

The 4 cylinder engine was built to be a common engine to tractors, trucks and industrial applications so the block for the 590E had to be able to fit on an existing gear box in the truck application that allowed the use of 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines.

The 590E is basically the 4 cylinder unit with 2 more cylinders grafted on. All the pistons, rings, bearings, valves, torque settings and valve clearances are common through the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder range.

It was not long before the need for more power in tractors saw the 590E engine grafted onto the tractor by enterprising farmers and dealers soon picked up the idea. Then County and Roadless used it in the Super Six and Ploughmaster 95.

Of course New Holland and Claas also used it on combines.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:49 pm
by Grani
Brian wrote:
The 590E is basically the 4 cylinder unit with 2 more cylinders grafted on. All the pistons, rings, bearings, valves, torque settings and valve clearances are common through the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder range.


I soon have to repair the 590 E engine i have in my boat because the cooling water is leaking down to the oilpan. This is the only problem with it. I have a Ford shop manual FO-201 where the Major engine repair is described so I can refer to it then?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:10 pm
by Brian
Yes, that would be no problem. Use the rule of 13 to set the tappets, 1 and 12 = 13. 2 and 11 = 13 and so on.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:40 pm
by Frans
Hello guys,

I think there was a topic on the old forum there was in it something like

the 590 is marked as a 510 engine and the where some modifided engines like the FL type which has 108 hp instead of ??

who nows witch topic that was I read a lot yed but can't find it

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:56 pm
by Pascal
Hi Frans,

Is this the piece of informationyou are looking for?
This great explination of all the enigine types was given by Steven Bin 2003:


I will list all 6 cylinder engines built by Ford from 1957 through to 1980. Engines produced after 1980 up until about 1992 for the Ford Cargo series trucks are generly the same as those produced in the 1970s but with more power.
First thing, ALL engines have a 115mm stroke. All engines have the same bore spacing. Some publications quote the stroke as 114.7mm and some 114.9mm. Thats about all thats common. The numbers contradict depending on what version of manual you look at. I am using the late 1970s version in this case.

1957 to 1961.

330 CID (5.4 litre), wet sleeve,100mm bore. Simms injector pump with vacum govenor. Injector pump is mounted towards the rear of the engine with an exposed drive shaft. Max power 100hp at 2400 rpm. Power output dependent on max speed set on indutrial version (about 85hp at 1800rpm). This is the 590E type fitted to mark one Thames Trader trucks.

1962 to 1965

330 CID wet sleeve, as per engine above but with "FL" head, Simms Minimec pump and modified block and sleeves. Max hp 108hp at 2400 rpm. Used in the Mark two Thames Trader FC and the Thames Trader NC. This engine is also fitted to the Fordson County Super Six

1965 to 1969

330 CID or 5.4 litre (100mm bore) and 360 CID or 6 litre(105mm bore) Dry sleeves, injector pump mounted on timing case. Oil pump relocated and driven from camshaft.

330CID was max 102.5 at 2800rpm hp and 360CID max 113.5 at 2800rpm. These engines were used in the D series and K series trucks as well as the R Series busses. Also fitted to the County 954 and 1004

From about 1969 a Turbo 360 was introduced. This engine is a modified 360CID and has stronger connecting rods and cylinderhead bolts with chrome cylinder liners. It remained in production untill 1980 and was 141.5hp at 2400rpm. This engine was used in the D Series trucks and R series busses.

In 1970 the 330 engine was replaced by a "365" CID 6 litre and a 380 CID 6.2 litre engine with a 107mm bore. These engines were parent bore, that is no sleeves. 365 6 litre was 103hp at 2800rpm anr the 380 was 113hp at 2800rpm. The Turbo engine remained the same. Also used in D, K and R series trucks/busses.

You must take into account that the method of mesuring hp changed in the 1970's where the hp was mesured with some ancilary equipent added.

I own many of these engines in trucks and they include 1957 330cid, 1962 330cid, 1970 365 CID and 1978 280 CID. All are good engines. Also note that all D Series engines are inclined at 45deg while Thames, K and R series engines are upright.

Regards

Steven.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:41 pm
by Frans
Hello Pascal,

Thats just what I mend

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:54 am
by Grani
Grani wrote: I soon have to repair the 590 E engine i have in my boat because the cooling water is leaking down to the oilpan. This is the only problem with it.

I have a gasket set for the 590 E model with only one rubber seal att the bottom of the sleeves. My boat engine has, refering to the cast code, one rubber seal at the top aswell. Is the gasket set the same in all other parts exept for the sleeve seals.
What is your opinion of using silicone seals instead of the original rubber seals at the sleeves? I think they would resist more heat and last longer.
I try to lift out the engine from the boat today when I get home from work.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:36 am
by Brian
Grani,

Yoy have the later type block. These use different seals so I would suggest you get a set of the later seals as the one you have will not be a good fit.

The old numberes were 116533ESA upper and 116534ESA lower.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:30 pm
by Grani
Here is the label of the gasket set and it says it will fit for old and new models and that is not possible and thats why I asked about the differences besides the sleeve seals. There is a lot of models listed that I newer heard of.
Image

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:48 pm
by Grani
Grani wrote:
Grani wrote: I soon have to repair the 590 E engine i have in my boat because the cooling water is leaking down to the oilpan. This is the only problem with it.


Here is the faulty seal. The sealgroove has a corroded spot where the water has been able to get by.
Image

590E Engine

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:13 am
by brownsmule
I've been reading this thread with interest. I know the whereabouts of a Fordson Super Major with a Bush Hog front loader. It will be for sale in a few years. The engine is questionable at the best, using oil, owner starts it every time with ether and compression lever up; so who knows......... Was the 590E sold in the USA and if so, what equipment/trucks was it used. Looking out for a future purchase and if so it will need to be re-powered. 100 hp in a SM frame would be a great work horse. With that in mind, how does the transmission and rear axle hold up to the extra horse power? Thanks in advance for the information.

Brownsmule

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:27 am
by Grani
Are You going to keep the frontloader after you put in the 590 E engine? If so, the loader has to have a frame that goes all the way to the rear axle and support the tractor at the bellhousing. The original 590 E oilpan gives no support at all to the tractor. Keep that in mind when you are planning this project. The normal transmission is not a problem but if it is equipped with live pto then the clutch may not last very long. I don´t know if it´s sold over there but it is used in Thames Trader trucks and several combines and industrial equipments like generators and compressors and so on from 1957- 1965.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:05 am
by Brian
Don't worry about the back end and extra HP. I have seen a Rolls Royce Merlin at 1400 hp fitted to a Major back end. They will take anything you throw at them from the clutch backwards.

590E/Major

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:23 pm
by brownsmule
Thanks for the reply and information. Yes, I'll keep the Loader and the current frame goes to the rear axle. I've never heard of nor seen a Thames Truck so I'll start by looking into some other ag equipment for the engine. It's great to know that the transmission & rear axle are built to handle that kind of horsepower. Best Regards Brownsmule

Re: 590E/Major

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:03 pm
by Grani
brownsmule wrote: I've never heard of nor seen a Thames Truck so I'll start by looking into some other ag equipment for the engine.

Here is a red beauty. 8)
Image

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:09 pm
by Grani
I am here again with my stupid serialnumber questions. :oops: I have two 590 E engines that not have the S number but a Truck number perhaps. The first is 510E58687 and the other is 510E54670.
I know both are from 1960 but the question is: Is the 510E***** number listed somewhere like the Major serial numbers, so when a change in parts where made the documentation tells from witch number and forward the change was?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:37 pm
by Brian
Grani,

510E is the truck engine number. You would have to find a truck site for any information though. Steven Barker on here might be able to help as he is "our Trader Truck" expert but I have not heard from him lately.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:51 pm
by Grani
I was just in my basement looking at the flywheel from my boatengine an it has not that marking just "1H1" and some other blury figures.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:12 pm
by Grani
On one 590E engine that I have the cast code is 4J24 and it tells 1964 and the J is July on earlier, but when it is after 63, the J is not in the code list, and 24 is the day. What do you think about the J mystery or am I missreading it completely?

(Here below is a copy from the cast code page)

The casting codes have two formats. Until 1963 the code consisted of a letter indicating a month, a number indicating the date, and a letter indicating the year, e.g. A21A indicates January 21, 1957. From 1963 onwards, the code consisted of a year number, a letter indicating the month and a number indicating the date, e.g. 4A21 indicates January 21, 1964. The ranges were as follows:

Month Until 1963 1963 and after
Jan A A
Feb B B
Mar C C
Apr D D
May F E
Jun H F
Jul J G
Aug K H
Sep L K
Oct M L
Nov N M
Dec P N

Year Code
1957 A
1958 B
1959 C
1960 D
1961 F
1962 H
1963 (Jan-May) J
1963 (Jun-Dec) 3
1964 4
Image

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:56 pm
by Lesfen
Hi Grani,

Ben has a somewhat similar problem with a J in the date code on the Dexta forum under 'Ben's Dexta-2'.
He has "22J4" on a Dexta axle which also doesn't fit either chart?

Cheers,
Les

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:33 pm
by Brian
You are comparing apples and lemons Grani. That is a truck engine not a tractor so the same date codes do not apply. That is why I say that you need a truck site to get the information.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:53 pm
by Grani
I was misanderstanding you then, I thought i was only the stamped serialnumber that was specific for the truck and the castcode the same as for the Major, but both are different then. :oops: How about the 4 cylinder Trader engine then?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:32 pm
by Brian
The 4 cylinder engine was also a tractor engine but the six was never used in a tractor. It was always a "grafted on" unit by different manufactures.

It was always a truck engine or an industrial and trucks were a completely different operation within Fords.

So the same moulds were used for the four and so casting codes were possibly the same on truck and tractor, but not for the six cylinder blocks because Fords never made a six cylinder tractor. The six cylinder blocks might have been made at other UK Ford plants.

The car engines also came out of the same foundry but were coded differently.

You cannot compare the two lots of numbers.

Tractor production of the Major finished in October 1964 so casting of the blocks would have finished in (say) August. The new trucks did not come out until the middle of 1965 so the "old" engines would have gone on being produced after that date and industrial blocks were still being produced in 1966. So you are going to find casting codes that don't add up whenever someone has replaced an engine with a later model.

That is why we get anomalies in tractors like the Super Major engine with the throttle through the block.