New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

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New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby norseman » Thu May 23, 2013 2:43 pm

Hi there and greetings from Norway.

I am looking into building a 6-cylinder Supermajor, both for fun and as a tool to run and handle a large woodmachine. I still have no tractor or engine, but are on the lookout and have just found this forum.

As it happens I came across a 6-cylinder advertised for sale a couple of days ago, located around 300km's from my place. It's been donated from a 67/68 combine according to the guy. The number stamped on the cylinder head is 510E-6050-E, but I was under the impression that this number without the "FL" designation corresponds to the older 590E engines with wet sleeves?

I am a bit worried about leaks and longevity when it comes to the old design wet sleeves, so I would really like it to be a dry-sleeved engine from after 1965, can anyone enlighten me as to what number to look for to match it to that type of engine and the late sixties combine it reportedly came out of? And does anyone know where the engine number is to be found, before I do the long drive?

And the 590E obviously has some afficionados here, is that due to it being correct in the lay-out as compared to the original Fordson engine, or is it other reasons?

From a technical, practical and parts-availability point of view, which type of engine would be the better choice for building a hassle free workhorse with a long expected life span after the build? I'm gonna use it for my woodmachine as said, and plans to keep it operational and in use for a very long time.

Suggestions, help and clarification greatly appreciated, best regards from Erik.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby norseman » Thu May 23, 2013 5:25 pm

I just heard from the seller. It has the exposed driveshaft for the injectorpump, so it has to be a pre 65 with wet liners. I am a little sceptic about that for an almost 50 year old engine that I intende to give a new life, with a service period of perhaps another 20+ years, but perhaps for no reason?

Any input?
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby Steven B » Sat May 25, 2013 7:43 am

Is it leaking water into the sump at the moment? I have 8 590E diesel engines, 4 six cylinder petrols, 3 330 Dovers and a 380 Dover.

The 590E is easy to rebuild and parts easy to get. If it is not leaking water at the moment I would not be too concerned. One of my engines was leaking. I pulled the sleeves and the block is fine.

If I was you I would be on my way to pick that engine up. I cannot walk past a 590E without getting my wallet out :twisted:
65 County Super Six. 62 Super Major x 2, 62 Super Dexta, 52 E1ADKN Industrial Crane, Thames Trader trucks coming out my ears. Two D Series trucks.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby super6954 » Sat May 25, 2013 7:07 pm

Steven B wrote:Is it leaking water into the sump at the moment? I have 8 590E diesel engines, 4 six cylinder petrols, 3 330 Dovers and a 380 Dover.

The 590E is easy to rebuild and parts easy to get. If it is not leaking water at the moment I would not be too concerned. One of my engines was leaking. I pulled the sleeves and the block is fine.

If I was you I would be on my way to pick that engine up. I cannot walk past a 590E without getting my wallet out :twisted:

Hi Steven
I was just reading your reply I would like to find a crank for the original 6d 330. Mine needs grinding again and it's to far gone :cry: . I was wondering if you Might have a good spare in your parts that might be for sale and could be shipped to Canada. I know shipping might be worth an arm/ leg and 3 fingers :lol:, But they want more than that to weld and re grind mine here in Canada , and they are not common here either :cry: .
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby Pascal » Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 pm

Hi Erik,

This topic might be usefull?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=477

590e's are great engines! :clap:
Best regards,
Pascal

Fordson's don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby Steven B » Sun May 26, 2013 10:20 am

super6954 wrote:
Steven B wrote:Is it leaking water into the sump at the moment? I have 8 590E diesel engines, 4 six cylinder petrols, 3 330 Dovers and a 380 Dover.

The 590E is easy to rebuild and parts easy to get. If it is not leaking water at the moment I would not be too concerned. One of my engines was leaking. I pulled the sleeves and the block is fine.

If I was you I would be on my way to pick that engine up. I cannot walk past a 590E without getting my wallet out :twisted:

Hi Steven
I was just reading your reply I would like to find a crank for the original 6d 330. Mine needs grinding again and it's to far gone :cry: . I was wondering if you Might have a good spare in your parts that might be for sale and could be shipped to Canada. I know shipping might be worth an arm/ leg and 3 fingers :lol:, But they want more than that to weld and re grind mine here in Canada , and they are not common here either :cry: .
Regards Robert


I may have one. I have an engine with a cracked block so I bought a petrol engine to convert into a diesel. The crankshafts are the same. I am not in Australia at the moment, I am working in Thailand, but I will be back home in a week or so. It would need to be crated for shipping but sea freight would not be that bad.

Also you may want to contact this guy.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-6D-THAME ... 7675.l2557
65 County Super Six. 62 Super Major x 2, 62 Super Dexta, 52 E1ADKN Industrial Crane, Thames Trader trucks coming out my ears. Two D Series trucks.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby super6954 » Wed May 29, 2013 7:23 pm

I may have one. I have an engine with a cracked block so I bought a petrol engine to convert into a diesel. The crankshafts are the same. I am not in Australia at the moment, I am working in Thailand, but I will be back home in a week or so. It would need to be crated for shipping but sea freight would not be that bad.

Also you may want to contact this guy.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-6D-THAME ... 7675.l2557[/quote]
Hi Steven
Thanks for the reply, please let me know when your home again and what you might have. Not wanting to sound like a cheap SOB, I looked at that crank and with the U.K exchange rate to Canadian, if that guy would ship it's gonna be a $1000 plus. I think $Can and your dollar are pretty close. The guys that will weld mine are there or a fraction over $1000, Plus shells if they can do it .
This tractor is one of the original conversions that was done in west wales U.K in the late 60's early 70's . the tractor was my friends who did the conversion, But to restore it I have to still put a reasonable price on doing it I have all the other parts now :) . It has no real sale value here in Canada, if I ever have to move it on for any reason :cry: .
So I was really looking for another Major fan that understands this. Than a guy who runs a crank grinding company and only thinks huge profits :) .
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby 1962 model » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:44 am

Hello all,
a word of warning, there are reasons that the cranks wear badly, firstly is water in the oil and also there is the fuel bleed off lines cracking the lead solder or the re using tof he copper sealing washers.

The crank I am about to throw out is destroyed from trying to reuse the rear taper type fitting, the person failed misserably and all of the return diesel was emptying into the sump.

I have also seen tractors with the bleed line to the tank blocked off, a reciepy for disaster!

The tractor I have been using for the last 20 years has the bottom "O" ring groves filled with Devcon epoxy resin, and touch wood it is still fine, if you get desperate this is one option, I made up a crude mould and filed to size after.

I believe sleeves can also be fitted to the lower grooves too, once machined to suit, but likely at a greater cost than another engine.
I have about 8 590E engines here too and most have a problem of one sort or another, it is possible that some water is better for them than others too.

Mike
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby super6954 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:31 pm

Hi Mike
My problems started in 1980 when my friend seized the motor through no oil pressure :eyes: .
They took the crank down to 30 thou on all journals when they re built it.

Not sure which but he said one set of bearing Journals was very close to junk then. but they put it together. so from what I can tell, the clearance was bad then :cry: . well It looks from the 10 thou ridge on the mains , the 500 hrs it did since, and from what my current motor guy said, those cranks were soft without a grind. So looks like my problem came from the last hardness being removed by the grinding.

If I was brave I bet a guy could grind the ridge and put 40's right on. I have a feeling though it might not be a true round journal now though, and would cause more problems. Probably it won't run long before it seized or dropped pressure again :eyes: .

I talked to the guys about welding and they won't do it anymore :cry: So looks like I got to find a crank and get it shipped to Canada. Do you know of any that might be available by any chance :idea: .
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby BearCreek Majors » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:12 pm

Robert, I have had good results with the weld job Baril did for me, and I belive they do quite a few of them yet. Not exactly cheap but probably better than having to find a replacment crank.

Pat

http://www.barilengine.com/
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby super6954 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:39 am

BearCreek Majors wrote:Robert, I have had good results with the weld job Baril did for me, and I belive they do quite a few of them yet. Not exactly cheap but probably better than having to find a replacment crank.

Pat

http://www.barilengine.com/

Hi Pat
Thanks for that info just looked at the site seems quite a useful place :) . will see what they say and get a price idea. I did see a fancy company on you tube as well. That looked real cool the way they spray weld, but also looks like a million dollar place that won't like guys in our groups price range :run: .

I'm kinda in the same boat as you with over extension of projects right now :eyes: . I Just picked a pair of P6 E27N brothers up from a farm. Kinda curious to get them opened up, and see if i can get 1 or both of them running this winter, customer jobs allowing space/ time :!: .
The 6d project needs doing but keeps getting the back burner with other stuff :cry: .
Maybe if that cranks stupid money I should get you on the hunt, with your good luck recently you'd probably trip over 6 someplace :lol: . I wonder what that motor might of been in this side of the pond. Have you heard of anything else using this type with a shaft drive fuel pump by any chance :idea:.
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby BearCreek Majors » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:58 pm

Robert, the shop that the youngest boy works for uses this machine shop all the time and with good results, and they always stand behind their work.
Always more projects to do than time to do them, we finally got back to 40 hr’s/week at work, but now the youngest boy got a place of his own and the garage was in sever need of a roof and repairs, so we’ve been bustn ass trying to get it done before the snow flies, should be throwing shingles up there this weekend and getting it done. And I am in the middle of installing another boiler to burn wood. My drain oil boiler is still working great but it seems some of the asphalt contractors figured out it is a lot cheaper to convert their machines to burn drain oil rather than fuel oil to heat the asphalt, this has drove the cost of drain oil from “get it out of here and you can have it” to over $1.00/gal, not very economical at that cost :cry:
E27N…… I just sent an email to a guy I met this summer, he is thinking of scraping one he has as the engine is bad. I’d love to have one but I need to stick to the new Majors for now, I hope to get the front wheels from him for my 54 “not for export”
I’m thinking we are both looking in the same places for the six cylinders, combines, air compressors, Thames Traders, etc. The D series seems to be fairly obtainable yet but the 590E’s is a different story. I have only seen 4 of them in the US and one of them is in my shop, I’m sure they are out there but hard to find.
And I did finally get the rebuild kit for mine a month or so ago, as well as the crank back from Barile, it didn’t need any welding, just ground it down to .010 under. So hopefully by spring the County Super Six will have the correct engine in her :D

Pat
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby 1962 model » Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:33 am

Hello everyone,
Please be aware that by fitting new bearings and ground crank, that a problem may be created by excessive loading on the sides of the bearings, ( thats right the sides not the top or bottom ! )

To understand this issue it is necessary to understand how manufacturers produced these and other makes of engines.
These engines were never designed to last this long!

The process consists of casting a block from a sand mould and as soon as the sand is removed and it is cool enough machining commences, at this time all machining tollerances are correct.
During the test run and warranty period what actually occurrs is the the main bearing caps streatch and the block settles, ( having more cast iron on one side ) this creates a bend in the block from front to back, this is considerable over time and puts a side load on the "straight crankshaft" and it may even be possible that the crank bends back and forth during cool downs too. ( by this time 2014,all settling should have occurred ).
Back to my original statement the side loading on the crank is created by the gradual bending of the block during the settling in period ( or block ageing process if you like )
The settling of the block and the bearing / crank wear originally occurrs gradually and terrible main bearing clearances result, this is on top of issues with water or diesel in the sump causing bearing and crank wear.
The main bearing problem is not helped by what seems to be a low torque specification for the main bolts, the early ones are undersized and this was later fixed by an increase in bolt size.
My son's 590 E tractor conversion engine actually broke the tips off two of the main bearing bolts ( smaller type 1960 ones ) from the crankshaft flailing around and pounding the bearing shells, this engine needs major work in the near future! This excessive clearance was from crank wear and main bearing streatch, I hate to think what huge clearances it must have had!
I have come across this main bearing bore bending during block settling with other manufacturers too, so it is not a problem specific to Ford, and I am sure the larger the engine the more this can be a big problem.

I have recently had a 590E block line bored ( mains ) because of the cap streatch and bearing clearance problem it creates and I was alarmed at just how far out of alignment the main tunnels were, I will be having the main tunnels bored out on all future rebuilds.

Another thing to consider is the actual bottom o ring bore which locates the liner itself, this can become oversize and allow the liner to rock back and forth, of course in this situation the head gasket leakage and bottom O ring leakage can be reoccurring problems, which can only be overcome by machining back to specifications.
I have had a recent issue with the bottom bore diameter allowing the new liner to rock and I am now considering the possibilities of having the block bored out and the later liners fitted to refresh the diameters.
This may be possible because the later liners are thicker on the outside, but I still need more research on this about cost and the amount of cast iron in the relevent places.

These engines are getting old now and while are still available in some countries in others seem to be very rare, re machining an old block may be one option, but not a cheep one.

In countries where these engines are still available the best option is to get a late block from about 1961 to 64 these have thicker liners, bigger main bearing bolts and other improvements, any rebuild should include a block main bearing tunnel rebore, but do not fit semi finished bearings as this will not resolve the cause of the problem.

If only an early 590 E engine is available always check the bottom O ring bore for erosion and cracking around the head bolts, and new modern high tensile main bearing bolts tightened to a more realistic torque setting may be a distinct advantage! Boring the block out to to the larger liner diameters may be an option to reclaim an eroded block, if the funds and facilities are available at the local machine shop.

So to answer the original question, get a late model 590 E and no it is not possible to do a cheap rebuild and have it last a long time with long hours running time, but a cheap rebuild can last for some time if used sparingly.
I am not wealthy, but some measures are essential to have a reliable engine and in the case the crank should be made right, even if short cuts are made on other componets. ( It is a huge job to replace a crank in service )
Of course saying all this none of this matters if the injection pump is left till last to find that it is unsurvicable ( and many are ) the injection pump condition needs to be the starting point of any rebuild, if it has corrosion in the cam box the chances are it will be cheaper to buy an other 590 E and start again!
All my rebuilds from here on will be the expensive type as I do not like huge main bearing clearances!

Mike
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Re: New to this, 6 cylinder engine confusion

Postby 1962 model » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:00 am

Hello me again,
I have pulled down the last 590 - E engine here, and guess what? It is totally stuffed!
It has the usual problems of leaky liners and leaking fuel return line, consequently the crankshaft is stuffed! (too far to grind )
on top of this, two of the bores have large cracks between them. It is now thrown outside now, good for nothing!

From my experience it is way more common for the crankshaft to be badly worn through, main bearing out of alignment combined with leaky fuel return connecting pipe, than from doing work!

The Power Major I use has a head to tank line that does not seal properly and while that is a pain it has allearted me to a serious problem with the engine, as it has stopped leaking and I have been wondering why.
When I stopped to think about it, and checked the oil level I found out why, the deisel is emptying into the sump, very serious indeed! The problem is obviously a cracked soldered joint on the banjo fittings.
:cry: :cry:
I need to fit a new injector return line as soon as possible and drop the oil.
I always fit copper washers ( and have had some especially made ) to either side of the banjo fittings as they do not seal very well without them.
I do not think that these were fitted originally, but they are essential for the longevity of the engine.
these copper washers are the same fitted to the injection pump overflow pipe banjo.

I have just bought a Super Major Moore loader which has been butchered by mechanical modifications and shitty work, when replacing the clutch they oxy cut the ends off the front engine plate and later fitted an additional plate and rubber mounted it, this of course broke out the side rail bolt holes in the gearbox, and the damage goes on!

This engine has done very few hours and while some engine parts were surprisingly good, you guessed it!
The crankshaft main bearings were badly worn ( from the original sized journals ) this seems to dispell the comment about the crankshafts being harder to begin with.
Another thing that points to a main bearing problem is the fact the the mains often require grinding to smaller sizes than the big ends.
This crank is still on standard size for the big ends but the mains had to be ground to .010 undersize.
When I dismantled the engine I payed particular attention to the condition of the fuel return pipe from the injectors again you guessed it, one of the banjo soldered joints was completely cracked off and just there for the ride!
It was emptying all of the excess diesel into the sump and that is quite obviously why the mains were worn.

Again this points to the crankshaft wear not being associated with the liners leaking because this was not evident, the seals were still doing their job, still with the original liners.

To me this conclusively points to the most major problem with crankshaft wear in the 4cyl and 590- E 6 cylinder engines being the condition of that fuel return line, everyone should check that their pipe is not leaking diesel into the sump.

Of course leaking liners are also a major problem too, but this is more obvious and easier to detect, of course this adds to the wear on crankshafts in a major way too.

Mike
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