Temperature mystery

This forum is about the Fordson F, N and E27N Major.
John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

A 10 psi cap will give you a boiling point of 115°C, but as Sandy says your heat exchanger looks like it should be fine with the extra pressure, and hasn't given you any problems up to now
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Emiel
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Emiel »

Hi

These old bellow style thermostats can not be used with a pressure above 7 psi in the system usually.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

Good point Emiel, you are correct
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Image

Image

A few views of the engine that may show whether Mark 1 or Mark 2.

And the strange number where a serial number's often found.

Regards

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

Looks like a Mk1 but I can't confirm it without a pic of the lower part of the block. The number is odd, are you sure there are no more digits there? Look on the flange behind the starter and below injector no. 4 (don't expect anything there, if there is, Ebro has had the engine); and behind the dynamo and above the manifolds for casting codes (pics would help lots).
Sandy
ImageImageImage

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Image

Sandy, do you mean including the sump or just the lower block? Left, right and front views?

Pics above show the raw-water cooling outlet. The strong one is when cruising at about 1,000 revs. The dribble is when the filter is getting nearly blocked, but even this one can still be cold.

I take the point, Sandy, on keeping the filter clean but the time it was hot was an exceptional occurrence. There was thick weed from bank to bank and not a lot of depth at the sides of the canal, so I had to stay in the middle and keep going for a while till I could stop and empty it. But even then, as I say above, the gauge had barely moved.

In a way I don't need a gauge as I can just look at the outlet flow and reach down to feel the temperature. But it would be a good idea to have one, and one that I know works!

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John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

From the colour of the engine it looks like a Parsons marinised 4d engine, google Parsons Pike and a couple that colour come up. Found this site where they do original installation and service manuals
John
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... vGC6AwlPfu
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

Excellent page John.
The lower block will be fine, but the sump would be nice too. One is enough, but more will help in identifying the various parts on both sides. It will also help to have pics of the casting code locations (behind the dynamo and above the manifolds) and serial number locations (flange behind the starter and below injector no. 4). Your capillary temp gauge should be working fine if there is any movement.
Sandy
ImageImageImage

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Image


Sorry, these are really poor pics, but the best I can do for the moment.

I can't see under inj. 4 but I'm pretty sure from dates and other info that it's not an EBRO.

Can't see enough of the starter flange but there is nothing obvious on what I can see.

There is a single number '2' on the engine block towards the rear next to the starter.

There is a number on the block behind the alternator that is not obvious on the pic, but the part that I can make out is N2Z. I will have to do a thorough cleaning and scraping and 'brass (steel/iron) rubbing' to get any further.

Hope this helps a little, Sandy.

Regards

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

Definitely a Mk1, N2Z is 2 November 1956, the head will be similar (looks like you have a tractor sump, there's a code on it underneath ahead of the hole for the pin for the A-frame). I very much doubt it went to Spain, and it's a Ford casting as no Ebro castings appeared until late 1958 (Power Major). It's unlikely, but there might be a Ford number on the flange behind the starter. The head casting code is above the manifolds, and is likely to be a close date to the block. To find new bits you'll need to find them to fit a November 1956 Fordson Major Diesel.
Sandy
ImageImageImage

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Image

That is stunning, Sandy, thank you very much. I have a Ford 'Parts List for 4 & 6 cylinder industrial engines' that came with the boat which has a hand-written note on it from the previous owner saying 'type 592E'. So I've always thought that's what mine was, until now!

As it's Mark 1, and has what appears to be a tractor sump, does that mean it's an E1A agricultural engine, or could it be a 562E industrial? I read that the industrials were popular with marinisers but that other types were marinised too.

It's difficult to get a pic of the underneath of the sump, but it's shallow at the front and deep at the back, if that helps. I'll try at some stage to see if I can find a code where you suggest.

Mark 1 also settles the thermostat question. I have downloaded a manual for 'Fordson Major' that has the pic above. So when I finally remove the thermostat, I'm fully expecting it to be the one on the left for 'Earlier type'. And from your advice, Sandy, I can be confident about what I replace it with.

Getting close to all my questions answered. Excellent help.

Regards

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

It could be an early industrial engine, before they got aluminium sumps; the sump is definitely the tractor cast iron sump (the dipstick location and shape - yours is bent down, you should find it stamped TRACTOR on the outside portion). Don't be too bothered about the sump casting code, the one I would definitely make a note of is the head code, as then you confirm what I think (the head is probably November 56, as I would also expect with the sump). The thermostat can be either, as both can be fitted (as can a modern one if you need to), I recommend the TC3 (the one it would have started with), but get what you can. I recommend you get the full Major repair manual engine section, so you can catch replacement parts that are for later engines and know if they're suitable for you or not. Just looking at a picture on the Parsons website there might be an ID plate on the back of the rocker cover, that will perhaps allow us to know what it is for sure (bearing in mind that there are two Parsons units with the Major four, the Pike is the tractor engine, and the Porbeagle is the lorry engine).
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

Sandy, do you think it would be worth fitting a 7 psi radiator cap along with the new thermostat? That seems to be the maximum running pressure for these engines and if a bellows type thermostat is fitted it should be ok at that pressure. 10 psi seems a little high to me
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

I would fit one, as that's what Ford offered.
Sandy
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SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Image

Fantastic! Wow! On top of the head, above the manifold: N9 Z

And on the dipstick, which I must have looked at a thousand times (and more) and never noticed: TRACTOR

Well, well, well. So I have a November 1956 Mark 1 Fordson Major agricultural (tractor) engine.

I am so pleased. Thank you again, Sandy. That is magnificent.

BTW, no ID plate on back of rocker cover.

And I'll replace my heat exhanger cap with a 7psi one when I fit a new thermostat. Thank you, John.

I was going to sign off with that as all my questions are answered but I'll do that later in case there are any other thoughts on this thread.

Many regards

SteveB

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

The head is 9 November 56. I don't yet know for sure it's a tractor engine (1600 rpm working speed), some industrial engines worked at 1800 rpm (for generators in America among other things) and used tractor sumps, and lorry engines (used by the ET6 and Thames Trader) exceeded 2000 rpm, having an aluminium sump with a much longer dipstick. What number does the injector pump have? The contemporary tractor pump is SPE-4A 70S 380, and has different delivery valves to the lorry engine, when the Power Major appeared the lorry delivery valves were fitted to the tractor engine.
SteveB wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:13 am
I have downloaded a manual for 'Fordson Major' that has the pic above.
I recommend you get the complete engine, cooling, fuel, lubrication, electrical and clutch sections (I mean the original manual plus all supplements). Service letters are also useful, but difficult to find.
Sandy
ImageImageImage

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

The contemporary tractor pump is SPE-4A 70S 380
That's exactly it. I know it well as I blew the seals on the Rhône 12 years ago and ended up going backwards with no engine before being rescued. I even bought a spare pump from Peter Slater in case it happened again in a dodgy place. It's waiting in my spare 'room'.

The manual I referred to is only Section 1 and 'Issued January 1963'. I'm now on the hunt for the complete original!

Regards

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

ImageImageImage

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Downloads of manual, all done. And I'm probably done here too. So thank you all, and you Sandy, particularly, for your code-cracking skills. It's always a good idea to know what engine you've got when ordering spares. Now I do !

I'll post again to top and tail when I've sorted out the thermostat.

Meanwhile, I'm past the worst of the weeds on the Canal de Bourgogne, so I won't have to keep checking my outflow so much, or watching if my gauge is ever going to move above 60C :-)

Regards for now

SteveB

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