Temperature mystery

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SteveB
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Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

I have a 592E four-cylinder diesel engine in my boat. I am currently chugging along French canals. For 10 years, during summer cruising, my temperature gauge has read a little above 70C once completely warmed up. This year, since I set off in late June, it has read just below 60C and stayed there.

An engineer friend who also has a boat suggested the thermostat has stuck open.

The engine is raw-water cooled through a Bowman heat exchanger. The water comes from the canal through a filter at the bottom of the boat and exits via an outlet on the side.

There is a lot of weed in the canal I'm travelling on and the filter gets progressively blocked until I have to empty it. About a week ago, it was so clogged that before I could stop and empty it the cooling flow had almost completely stopped. The litte water that was coming out was too hot to touch and accompanied by puffs of steam. Yet the temperature gauge had barely moved more than a couple of degrees.

I am now wondering if the problem is connected with the gauge and/or the sensor (and/or the thermostat).

For info, the raw-water pump is a modern Sherwood impeller type that replaced a vintage pump. The running temperature with the old pump was about 80C.

I don't know the date of the engine as the serial number doesn't appear anywhere, but from other information I have it is likely to be around 1960. I believe that my 592E 'industrial engine' is essentially the same as the one in a Fordson Major.

Many thanks in advance for any advice offered.

John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

It could well be any of the things you mentioned, if the 'stat is stuck open the engine probably won't get up to working temperature if it's not working hard, try replacing it and see if it makes any difference. As for the gauge not showing it was overheating, it is more likely to be the sensor than the gauge itself, but if there was very little water in there that could be the reason, if no water is touching the sensor it won't read its temperature. Start with the 'stat and hopefully it will be ok after that, there are different rated thermostats for the fordson engine but if you remove yours the opening temperature should be stamped on it
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

Good to have another Major boat on here.
You should be running at 195ºF throughout the year. The 592E is the same as the Major, but will have an aluminium sump and will probably run faster too.
It's possible both the thermostat and gauge are in trouble, what type of gauge do you have? For dates look for casting codes on the block (behind the dynamo) and cylinder head (ablve the manifold ports), and the serial number (beneath injector no. 1 on the RH side of the block). If you can post some pics (see this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5024&p=53955#p53955) it will be clearer. Check the oil carefully to ensure no coolant gets in to it, otherwise the liners and head gasket will probably need attention. Ensure you have good coolant in the engine, to avoid corrosion.
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Bad electrical connections mean higher resistance in the circuit between temp gauge and earth through the temp sensor.

Check what happens when you disconnect the cable from the sensor and earth it directly. If the gauge stays “cool” you have a clue to where your problem is. This quick test is easier then taking the thermostat out.

If your water leaving the boat gets steamy and the temp gauge doesn’t show that, I don’t think your thermostat is the first suspect.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Emiel
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Emiel »

3 guys typing and answer at virtually the same time :D
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

I think there are 2 separate issues here, the engine wasn't getting up to temperature and doesn't sound like it is under heavy load, which to me points to the thermostat stuck open (i may be wrong though) and the overheating which was due to a lack of coolant
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

I would start with the temp gauge, if it's a capillary type it will either work as it should or not at all, if its an electric one all connections need to be ensured clean and tight. Once the gauge is out the way if it still doesn't reach 195ºF you'll want to get a thermostat (use one like AC's TC3 or TF2, if you have a Mk2 head you must use AC's TF2, the shrouded one, these start to open at 176ºF, if it still runs a bit cold fit a TF4 which opens at 186ºF).I would ensure you clean your water filter far more often, to ensure you don't have poor cooling and risk overheating (and have coolant leaking in to the oil).
Sandy
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SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Many thanks for the replies. A few clarifications.

John b. The coolant level in the heat exchanger is fine. It's the raw water passing through it that was partially blocked.

Emiel and Billy26F5. It's a capillary type, so no electrical connections. It's not the original Fahrenheit one. It's a Dräger (a German make) that goes from 40C to 100C with a red zone from 90-100.

john b. It's very rarely under heavy load. On the canals, I'm only doing about 1,000rpm max most of the day. Occasionally 1,100 on clear stretches but then I'm in danger of breaking the speed limit (8kph usually) !

I now think I may have been too quick to wonder if there was a problem with the gauge. It was only running for a short time on tick-over in neutral at the time the flow was almost blocked. There was still a few spurts and the fact that the outlet was hot means it was doing its job. And the gauge did go up a few degrees. And it is a big lump that takes a long time to warm up.

And the gauge does go up to 60C when warming up so, as you say Billy, it either works as it should or it doesn't. So that would rule out the gauge and mean the problem is the thermostat.

I'll come back to this later today as I've a couple of questions on the correct thermostat and running temperature, particularly for a marinised engine that just chugs along all day at relatively low revs. For example, when it came across the Channel (with a pilot) it went day and night at a steady 1,600 revs and the temperature, with the vintage pump, was only in the mid-80s.

Regards















Temperature mystery

A mystery for me, that is.

I have a 592E four-cylinder diesel engine in my boat. I am currently chugging along French canals. For 10 years, during summer cruising, my temperature gauge has read a little above 70C once completely warmed up. This year, since I set off in late June, it has read just below 60C and stayed there.

An engineer friend who also has a boat suggested the thermostat has stuck open.

The engine is raw-water cooled through a Bowman heat exchanger. The water comes from the canal through a filter at the bottom of the boat and exits via an outlet on the side.

There is a lot of weed in the canal I'm travelling on and the filter gets progressively blocked until I have to empty it. About a week ago, it was so clogged that before I could stop and empty it the cooling flow had almost completely stopped. The litte water that was coming out was too hot to touch and accompanied by puffs of steam. Yet the temperature gauge had barely moved more than a couple of degrees.

I am now wondering if the problem is connected with the gauge and/or the sensor (and/or the thermostat).

For info, the raw-water pump is a modern Sherwood impeller type that replaced a vintage pump. The running temperature with the old pump was about 80C.

I don't know the date of the engine as the serial number doesn't appear anywhere, but from other information I have it is likely to be around 1960. I believe that my 592E 'industrial engine' is essentially the same as the one in a Fordson Major.

Many thanks in advance for any advice offered.

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Apologies for repeating the first post. Too quick on the copy-paste as well !

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

The running temperature needs to be the same whatever the load, as the engine parts are designed to fit perfectly at that temperature, any higher and there will be high wear from too tight fitting parts, and too low will mean play and indirectly wear too.
Sandy
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SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Sandy, that's rather scuppered several questions I had, but I'll ask them anyway as they may help me understand a few things.

Elsewhere in the forum, it is said that the temperature stamped on thermostats is the opening temperature and not the fully open temperature, which is about 10C more. Is this correct?

Replacement thermostats for a 'Fordson Major' seem to come in several temperatures, 74C, 78C, 82C, 88C (see Agri Parts, for example, on eBay). Why?

Would the flow rate of my raw-water pump affect the running temperature? For example, if it's too powerful?

Also, Sandy, you say it should be running at 195F (90C). If mine was running at 90C, I'd be permanently hovering on the red zone. Sounds too hot given that it's been running below that for the last 15 years since I've had it and about 45 years before that with the original Dutch owner.

And finally, is the 'fully open' temperature the same as the optimal running temperature?

I'm not going to try to remove the thermostat to see what the failed one is, as it's been there so for long it could be a struggle. But I want to replace it when I've finished summer cruising, so I'd like to have an idea of which one would be best.

Many thanks again to all.

Regards

SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Sorry, Sandy, I didn't respond re serial number. I've looked in all the recommended spots (and elsewhere). The 'blank' under injector 1 has the engraved number R-60534, which doesn't correspond to any of the listed formats. I'm guessing that it's a number put there by the 'marinising' company which, for the historical record, was 'Sutton Power Units Ltd, Victoria Road, Burgess Hill, Sussex, England'.

I'll come back on the AC thermostats too when I've had a chance to research them.

Regards

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

Look for casting codes on the engine, it's possible you have an Ebro one, but pics will help to find what you have.
The temperature specified on a thermostat is the temperature when it starts to open, for it to be fully open it will need a bit more (10ºC souds right but it probably varies). Most replacement thermostats are not useable on Mk2 or later engines because they're not shrouded. I don't think your temp gauge is original, if you look at any Major you'll see the 195ºF marked on the temp gauge. The fully open temperature isn't necesserily the correct running temperature, as a very powerful radiator will need less than full flow to keep the coolant at the right temperature. The thermostat should come out quite easily, the different temperatures being for different climates (in the Outback you would want a low temperature thermostat to have more coolant flow, where as in Finland you want a high temperature thermostat to ensure the engine is hot enough).
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Interesting to see a capillary type temp gauge in this application.

Where is the temp sensor mounted, in the head as in a tractor or is it somewhere else in the circuit?

Is your exhaust cooled with the same water may-be? That can explain hot water getting back into the canal with an apparently cold running engine.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

Sandy, is it correct that the reason for the shrouded thermostat was a modification to stop the coolant being spat out of the rad cap at working temperature? If that's the case then wouldn't a sprung pressurised cap (as fitted to export models) also stop this happening, i know uk majors had unsprung zero pressure caps fitted but i've always used 7 psi sprung ones on mine and never had a problem, even with unshrouded thermostats
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

The shrouded thermostat improves cooling by blocking the bypass hole, essential with 5 fins per inch radiators to maintain the correct temperature. The pressure cap I would have left as std., as it reduces coolant loss and improves the cooling.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

Does the Ebro have a sprung or unsprung cap?
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think Ebro only used the pressure cap, same style as the AC one Ford used. I'll post a pic later or tomorrow.
Sandy
PS: I'll get them later with all our Ebro caps together as we're still missing one.
Last edited by Billy26F5 on Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Am hoping to put some pictures up. Not too easy, so may be a little time. Meanwhile, Sandy, AC T2 or T3 look good and could well be what's there now.

John b
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by John b »

I used the sprung cap as 7psi should raise the boiling point by 10°c, the UK unsprung ones always seem to blow cloolant out when they are hot
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

There are AC TC (non shrouded) and TF (shrouded) thermostats. The two ranges have different numbering, so I don't know which one you're referring to.
As for pics see this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5024&p=53955#p53955.
Sandy
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SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Too quick again. I meant the shrouded ones, TF2 (opens at 80C) and TF3 (68C). Thanks for pics link. I'm going to ftp them to my website as soon as I can (weed permitting).

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

The TF3 is the Dexta thermostat, a bit cool for a Major.
Sandy
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SteveB
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by SteveB »

Image

Image


Pics work my end!

Apologies all, I'd forgotten I bought many years ago a copy of the service manual for the 'industrial engine', which includes the 592E. I've dug it out but it may not answer exactly which thermostat I have as it's for 'engines built from January 1st 1960 (engine number S.174500 onwards)'.

Sandy, I've tried many times to find a serial number or casting codes on the engine and given up each time. They'll be there somewhere I guess but the engine is in a confined space and may have to come out to find them, or ask someone whose double-jointed with a mirror :-)

The thermostat is described as a 'shrouded by-pass bellows type', and there's a diagram of it (see pic).

An AC one (see pic) looks very like the diagram so it may be that it's the one in my engine, unless the previous owner has changed it.

The TF2 opens at 80C and the TF3 at 68C. If I got a TF2, the fully open temp should be about 90C and the running temp would then probably be less, given my strong pump. A TF3 running temp should be somewhere under 78, which is about where it's been for the last 10 years. So both sound good, with the TF2 better.

Emiel, see pic attached of heat exchanger and gauge. The raw water comes in one end of the heat exchanger (you can't see the connection), goes through a cylinder of copper tubes, out the other end and then out the side of the boat. You can also see where the temperature sensor is.

No, exhaust is not cooled by the raw water. The two are separate.

I'm not going to do anything about the thermostat till I'm back at base, particularly at the moment passing through so much weed as I need a working engine for a while yet.

But I think I'm getting there! I should know what I need when I see what's there now.

One thought. Is there an advantage in replacing the original with a more recent one (pic, left)? Is it better in some way?

John b, you mention pressure caps in relation to temperature. I have a replacement 10 psi sprung cap on my heat exchanger. Too much?

Regards

Billy26F5
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Re: Temperature mystery

Post by Billy26F5 »

The pressure cap should be fine, it would be a bit much for a radiator, but as you don't have one I think you'll be fine. Engines from July 1958 should be the same as the ones from 1960 (in theory, not in your case). If you don't mind it would be quite nice to have it in the FFCN to see differences with the tractor engine (ask Henk or Mathias about that). Some pics of the areas where the codes are (and general ones too) will help see what you have, maybe not to the month or even year but certainly what stage in the evolution, from the second pic it seems to be a Mk1 missing the decompressor. Ford used Smiths, AC and other companies making thermostats just like the one on the manual, definitely start with a TF2 first, as that's what Ford used, as you have a Mk1 head you may find a TC3 (also used by Ford, before the Mk2 and adoption of the TF2) in there, if so the modern one should be ok, although I would still use the TC3 (or TF2). You should be fine to run until you bet back to base, just keep your water filter as clean as possible.
Sandy
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