Super major wet clutch?

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Anth92
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Super major wet clutch?

Post by Anth92 »

Hi all, been benefiting from this excellent forum for years but this is my first post. I recently bought a 64 super major with a big heavy loader on it and I’m in the process of getting it running. The old fella I bought it off told me it had a wet clutch which was confirmed by a drain plug in the bell housing and oil inside. I have combed through my manuals and forums and I can’t find any info on wet clutches for majors at all. Just not sure if it uses oil from the gearbox or if there’s a fill plug I am missing. If anybody has any info on fill locations or oil used it would be much appreciated! If photos would help I can put some up just gotta work out how.
Thanks in advance.

Anthony

Billy26F5
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Billy26F5 »

Some pics of this would help, it could either be a retrofit or a failed seal that wasn't fixed properly, as this was't a factory option.
As for pics, see this:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5024
Sandy
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Anth92
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Anth92 »

Thanks for the reply. I’ve got a few photos here, if you need anything more specific just let me know. Some strange fittings and a petcock in the bellhousing not sure if they have anything to do with it. Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

Billy26F5
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Billy26F5 »

This is a very odd modification, as normally the only hole is where you have the drain plug and it's 3/16" in diameter (to allow any leak to get out). I don't know anything of such a conversion, and I think you'll need to find out who fitted the loader and get some manuals for it (not just for the Major).
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by shepp »

I would hazard a guess that this is a machine fitted with the optional 13 inch heavy duty clutch, which would fit the bill as it is a loading shovel. The " strange fittings" referred to are on the end of the clutch release cross shaft on either side, and certainly the one on the nearside ( left) of the tractor where the clutch operating rod attaches is a grease fitting for the clutch release bearing, these were a very heavy duty release bearing for the 13 inch clutch and were greased by filling the grease cap with grease and occasionally turning it half a turn to send grease through to the bearing. The 13 inch clutch was a dry clutch.

I would also hazard a guess that the drain plug in the bell housing is a modification for wading or operating in deep water, similar to the wading plug that was fitted in Land Rover Series bell housings - the instructions from Land Rover were to fit the plug for operating in deep water but to remember to remove it afterwards to allow oil that had leaked past the crankshaft oil seal to drain out of the bell housing. In the case of this machine it is likely that the oil retained in the bell housing by the plug IS engine oil that has leaked past the rope crankshaft rear oil seal, or alternatively oil from the gearbox that has leaked past the seal on the gearbox input or first motion shaft. If this oil is a dirty black it definitely IS engine oil! ! Needless to say I would recommend that this oil be drained before it causes clutch slip.

In the case of the " petcock" is this definitely in the bell housing and not the gearbox? It is hard to tell from the picture. If in the bell housing I would say this is a quick way for draining the bell housing of any oil that has leaked past the crankshaft seal and any water that has got into the bell housing as a result of wading or operating in deep water, so that the plug in the bottom of the bell housing can remain in place and you don't have to grovel underneath the machine to remove the plug.

Wet clutch?? I don't think so, but it will be both a wet clutch and a slipping clutch if you don't drain the oil from the bell housing!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Billy26F5 »

There's no screw cap greaser in the usual place, so I don't think it's a 13" clutch, and all the extras are in the bell housing, as the front of the gearbox is slightly behind the front of the belt pulley cover plate.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by shepp »

Hi Sandy

On the first picture posted it looks like a screw cap greaser on the end of the clutch release cross shaft. With the drain cock on the bell housing I still think my educated guess will prove to be a good one!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Billy26F5 »

The connection looks hydraulic, and I don't think it has anything to do with the cross shaft.
A manual would help clarify this.
Sandy
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Anth92
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Anth92 »

Thanks Shepp and Sandy. Sounds like I have some more manuals to look for. All the extra bits are definitely in the bellhousing the petcock seems strange as a drain though as it’s a fair way up the side. Sorry the photos could be better, I probably should wash the old girl, would make things easier to see. The loader is a Moore HL22 built by Malcolm Moore in Australia, can be a bit tricky to find information on. I’ll try to contact the bloke I bought it from he had it for 20 years or so see if he can elaborate anything he knows. Thanks for all the help guys

shepp
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by shepp »

I have looked at the pictures on the desk top computer on a large screen and can now see more detail than on the tablet. The first picture when viewed on the tablet looked like it had a screw in grease fitting on the end of the clutch cross shaft on the left hand side of the tractor, but I can now see that was just a shadow. Also on the left hand side of the bell housing lower down on another picture there looks to be an elbow with a blanking plug screwed into a tapping in the bell housing. On the right hand side on another picture there looks to be a "T" piece with 2 blanking plugs screwed into what I would think is the bush where the clutch cross shaft is on this side of the tractor. Also, yes, the petcock is well up the side of the bell housing. All very strange!!

The elbow and T piece look to be standard cast iron fitting as used for water and steam, not hydraulic fittings. The cover for the timing opening on the bell housing is still in place and looks to be the original stamped plate held by 2 bolts which you would not expect would be oil tight. Perhaps if some of the oil was drained from the bell housing it could be seen if this was black engine oil.

I still do not expect that this is a wet clutch, to be any use it would have to be a multi plate clutch as used in the Standard and E27N and it is hard to see how that could be accommodated in the bell housing space. But all very interesting, the things that people have dreamt up for the Majors in the past never ceases to amaze, it just shows how universally adaptable these tractors were!!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

oehrick
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by oehrick »

I wondered if the turn of phrase 'wet clutch' might have been the seller forewarning of oil leakage into the bellhousing ?

Had the 'drain cock' been in the back end this might have been a site engineers solution to the 'waterfall' seal failing and the back end filling up, drain a pint or two and pour it back into the gearbox. I do this from time to time but using the tipper pipe !

With it being an Australian product, goodness knows what the outfit that built this loader onto a skid unit might have done to try and proof the machine against the intensely aggressive environment upside down plant has to endure, and it would appear, endure pretty well !

Welcome aboard Anthony, you seem to have found a rarity but as far as the original skid unit is concerned you will not find a more knowledgeable bunch on the internet :)
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Anth92
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Anth92 »

So I’ve had a bit more of a look at it, removed all strange fittings from the bellhousing, none were connected to anything just tapped into the side of the housing like a plug. The timing window is completely different to my other major, it has 3 fasteners holding it on and a gasket behind it whereas my other one looks normal. I’ve drained a bit off all the oils and the oil in the clutch while being pretty dark is nothing like the engine or even gearbox oil. Seems I’ve found myself a bit of an oddball, Malcolm Moore used to make Fordson’s into small cranes, graders and all sorts of things, I’m not certain but I think they were the local importer for Fordson’s at the time. Doesn’t seem to be much info out there on them. Thanks for all the help guys! :D

shepp
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by shepp »

Having made a few enquiries it is possible to have clutch driven plates re-lined with a material suitable for use in oil immersed situations. The E27N has of course a single plate clutch with a fairly heavy duty cover on it, and E27N specialist parts suppliers such as Cotswold Tractors and Cox & Turner provide new driven plates or can get plates re-lined. The E27N driven plate may even have the correct splined fitting to fit the E1A gearbox input shaft or first motion shaft, so there are a lot of possibilities here with what has been done. With proper sealing of the engine to gearbox joint and the timing plate cover this could well be an oil immersed clutch, with the petcock acting as a level plug and the other fittings for refilling it or topping up. With this being a loading shovel a wet clutch might have cooler running and longer life, the E27N clutch rarely gave trouble. It is all starting to add up to make a bit of sense.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Anth92
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by Anth92 »

I reckon you might be onto something there Shepp, makes a lot of sense. I was doing a bit to it over the weekend and sadly found a big nasty crack across the top of the gearbox, poor old thing has broken its back. So needless to say it’s coming apart soon, whether for a gearbox or just swap the loader onto my other major. When I get it split I’ll report back with some photos of what’s going on in the bellhousing. Thanks for all the help!

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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by henk »

Nasty thing to find. :cry: Hope you can cure here broken back. :scratchhead:
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by brockwood »

hi all haven't been on for a while none of the pictures are coming up for me and i don't know your location but here in aus malcolm moore had a super heavy clutch for the new major on non live drive tractors . the kit consisted of various seals gaskets plugs and so on to enable an e27 clutch apparently the same input shaft to be fitted some where i have a copy of the instructions, there is one in a loader at the Woods' Farming & Heritage Museum at Rupanyup Victoriae
Last edited by brockwood on Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
1x 23f 1x 34 blue n 1 x 44 green n e27/s x 8 3ooo/ 5000 slectospeed county 754 x1 ford k series truck

shepp
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Re: Super major wet clutch?

Post by shepp »

Sounds like you might have solved the mystery, the kit possibly included a flywheel with new drillings for the cover plate bolts as I think the bolt spacing will be different on the E27N clutch cover - or there may have been instructions on how to drill the existing flywheel. Of course it may have been that just the E27N driven plate was used with an E1A cover, but that is unlikely as the E27N cover was more heavy duty and had a lot more springs in it to provide greater pressure. The E27N clutch was a robust design and hardly ever wore out or gave up so it all makes sense.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

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