Tractor serial number begin and end with star

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Philip
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Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

I have a roadless np major. The engine serial number starts and ends with a star *209485* I think it is from an Ebro super 55. Any help identifying it and the year quality of build etc appreciated

Brian
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Brian »

There should be a casting code in the area of the dynamo. It will start 3, 4 or possibly 5 or 6 if it is indeed an Ebro engine built on the Super Major assembly line after it was shipped to Spain in mid 1965.

As far as quality is concerned, Ford were happy to put their name on spare parts built by Ebro and complete engines were brought in by Perrys of Potters Bar to service existing tractors into the 70's.

The stars may indicate your engine might be an industrial unit or, more concerning, one built by Ford at the end of the run when they bored out main bearings or camshaft bearings over-size. Bearings may for example be standard I/D but be 0.010" O/D. These bearings are no longer serviced and have to be re-metalled if they are worn.
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by shepp »

Hello Philip, some more detail about your engine would be helpful, but if it is an Ebro engine here is some background information on Ebro. "The Ebro" is of course a river in Northern Spain whose banks saw some of the fiercest fighting of the Spanish Civil War:

The company that became the user of the Ebro marque (Motor Iberica) had it's roots in a company originally established in the 1920's by FORD as "Ford Motor Iberica" in Barcelona, a Ford company. Commercial vehicles similar to the types that were later made at the new Dagenham factory and a version of the model T car, the Ford Ebro, were initially produced. However these were all FORD products at this time. The Spanish Civil War wrecked Ford's plans as well as the factory! Production was curtailed. Even after the end of civil hostilities WW2 intervened, and so no decisions about the factory were made until the 1950's. Discussions then took place between Ford and the Spanish Government and a group of Spanish investors. This led to the factory being taken over essentially by the Government in 1954. The old company "Ford Motor Iberica" was dissolved and re-emerged as a majority Spanish owned and registered "Motor Iberica" to run the plant. I don't yet know the financial details ( awaiting translation of a document in Spanish) but included in the deal with Ford were licensing agreements for Motor Iberica to produce British designed Ford products under licence. This commenced with a version of the ET4/ET6 truck which was later joined by a version of the Trader, and eventually a version of the D series truck was built.

Contrary to popular belief ( or rather misbelief!), versions of the Fordson Major tractor were built by Motor Iberica at Barcelona under licence from 1955 onwards - the Major 44 (Major), the Ebro 48 (Power Major), the Super Ebro (Super Major), and the Ebro Super 55 (New Performance Super Major) which continued in production in Spain for several years after tractor manufacture at Dagenham ceased. So Ebro had been building versions of the Major tractor and this engine since 1955 onwards and not 1964 onwards as many people think. I think because Motor Iberica bought much of the redundant tooling for the Major range off Ford when production at Dagenham ceased in 1964, then many people believe that 1964 is when tractor production first started in Spain - not so! In my experience much of what has been written about the Ebro marque is incorrect. Apparently Ford had Motor Iberica build this engine for them from 1970 until 1974 for Ford to continue to sell as their own industrial engines with "S" prefix serial numbers.

UK built 4 cylinder engines for tractor and industrial applications were known as 592E type and were allocated the well documented serial numbers for tractor applications, and serial numbers with an "S" prefix for industrial applications. For truck applications the engine was sometimes known as the 530E as well as 592E and was allocated a different range of serial numbers. Unfortunately the records of serial numbers for later truck engine applications are lost, but with a number of 209485 your engine could be a later UK made 530/592E type truck engine if it is not an Ebro produced engine. There were slight differences between the engines depending on the intended application, these were mainly in the injection pump delivery valves to give slightly different performance characteristics.
After the end of Fordson Major production at Dagenham in 1964 (and the almost simultaneous launch a few months later of the D series truck with it's new 220 330 and 365 engines with front plate mounted injection pumps), the old 4 cylinder 592E was still made at Dagenham for industrial applications up to 1970, and the old 6 cylinder 590E was still made at Dagenham for industrial applications up to 1967, both with "S" prefix serial numbers. This was possible because casting of the blocks for these engines had been farmed out to the Sterling Metals Foundry Ltd from around March 1964, cylinder heads had been produced by a different foundry since April 1962 ("FL" heads), and so there was no demand on the busy Dagenham foundry for castings for these older engines. It was simply a matter of assembling these older engines at Dagenham from bought in components. Industrial versions of the new D series engines also came into production from around late 1965 (?) onwards. Therefore it was still possible to buy a new Dagenham built 4 cylinder 592E engine from Ford Industrial Services as a replacement engine for a tractor right up until 1970, or an Ebro made engine sold as a Ford by Ford industrial Services between 1970 and 1974. Thus there was a 10 year supply of engine availability from Ford themselves after production of the Major range finished, this was the standard automotive obsolescence period common in the industry. So if anyone has a tractor with an "S" prefix engine serial number, it is possible that it might have had a brand new engine fitted in that period 1964 to 1970 (or to 1974 for a Ford sold Ebro built engine) - equally it is possible that it might have an engine from an old compressor or similar industrial item!! You would have to look at casting codes for further information as to it's build date.

With regard to engines having oversize on the outer main bearing shells, engines with these shells were stamped "O/S" on the block sump flange.

I do not know the extent of your experience with these engines, so forgive me if I ask the obvious, but:

1) Does the cylinder head have the letters "FL" cast in it behind no. 1 injector pipe?

2) Is the Simms injection pump a minimec type or vacuum governed type?

3) Is the injection pump mounted on a bracket fixed to the engine with a visible drive coupling, or is it mounted to the front engine case with no visible drive coupling?

4) On the starter side of the engine block, are there the letters "FoMoCo" cast in an oval, or the letters "Ebro" cast in the block? (Or any other letters?).

5) On the top of the cylinder head adjacent to the exhaust manifold, are there 3 numbers (such as 7 9 63) cast into the head? If so what are they?

As Brian says, Ford were perfectly happy with Ebro making this engine and the parts, so I don't think you need have any worries about the build quality - this was originally a Ford factory and it is likely that Ford's methods of quality control were instilled into factory procedure and the workforce. As I previously said they apparently had Ebro produce this engine for them which Ford sold as their own branded industrial engine from 1970 to 1974 after Dagenham production ceased, but these would have had "S" prefix serial numbers ( and probably "Ebro" cast into the block.) . After 1974 the engines were available new for some years from Motor Iberica as Ebro engines. Again as Brian says complete new engines were imported into the UK to service various applications as supplies of UK built stock began to dry up.

* It also appears that from other posts on this site (such as those relating to toe in/out problems on the front axle) that Ebro probably supplied Ford with other parts, such as front axle spindles, in order for Ford to be able to provide service parts for tractors in that 10 year obsolescence period after 1964 that was usually the "norm". *

If you visit "YouTube" and search "Motor Iberica" and "Ebro tractor" it will throw up a number of videos taken by Spanish enthusiasts during restorations and at working events - the preservation movement for these tractors is strong in Spain as it is for the Fordson brand in the UK! Also listed are a few extremely interesting official films of the works, one of which dates back to the early Ford Motor Iberica time when Ford owned the factory from the 1920's to 1954. Others are from 1954 to the mid 1960's under Motor Iberica ownership and show various types of Fordson Major tractors being produced alongside versions of the ET4/ET6 and Trader trucks. Manufacture and assembly of engines and other components are shown.
See also volume 7 "The Super Class" of Ford and Fordson on film DVD series. This shows a working demonstration at a market town festival in Catalonia, Northern Spain, where UK built export versions of the Dexta are shown working alongside what the narrative describes as "...the locally produced Super Major, or Super Ebro as it is known in Spain". The tractors shown have vacuum governed injection pumps which dates the film as prior to April 1962.
Last edited by shepp on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:00 pm, edited 12 times in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

mathias1
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by mathias1 »

mine does also has an ebro engine:
Image
on the other side EBRO is visible on the engine
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shepp
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by shepp »

I think the information from mathias1 answers the question posed by Philip, and it looks like he does have an Ebro engine in his roadless major. It also should have "Ebro" cast in the block on the starter side of the engine.

ALSO NOTE: the numbers on this Ebro engine are punched by a set of standard type number punches, whereas Ford used number punches that were more of an italic type with characters "on the slant".

If anyone has any further information on Ebro then please post it on this discussion!
Last edited by shepp on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Philip
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

Thanks for the replies the picture is just like mine I thought it was an Ebro cheers

Philip
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

I will look around it following your guidance and get back to you.

Thanks

Philip
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

Hi guys I know it's been a while but I finally got round to post some more information. I know we said it was and Ebro engine but I cannot find Ebro marked on the block.

To answer this question from shepp
On the top of the cylinder head adjacent to the exhaust manifold, are there 3 numbers (such as 7 9 63) cast into the head? If so what are they?

My numbers are 76 30 12 6050-j m4

The only other markings I can find these which sit behind the dynamo DDN-6015-f

And a number 2 stamped in the block above where the injector pump is

I am still doing this tractor up I am on to the taking the paint off stage. It's been a real mission to get to this point with clutch replacement to new uprated agrilline clutch so I could convert it to a live drive, gearbox needed bearings replacing and had to harvest parts to make live drive from dead drive. Had all the backend out to replace pinion gears in the diff, fix screaming PTO as I discovered it had the wrong number of teeth plus other pump issues etc. Wow what a journey this has been but I've learnt a lot doing it. I would really like to know for definite what the engine is and what year it was manufactured and where.

Thanks for anymore input and all the info so far

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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Billy26F5 »

Some pics would help.
Ebro casting codes are a bit messy and pics really do help. The various things you say do point to a potential Ebro engine.
Is there a number here?
Image
If so it's definitely an Ebro engine.
Sandy
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Philip
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

Well I found the Ebro mark it is on the side plate you remove to see the push rods in the engine. The plate was so dirty and it was upside down I couldn't see it. So yes it's an Ebro engine. Does anyone know how I can tell what age it is. Now I've cleaned all off it has 9 12 76 on the block and as I've said 76 30 12 6050-j m4 on top. Does that mean the engine was made in 1976?

Billy26F5
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think so. What number does it have on the back RH side of the block? It's supposed to be an engine number.
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mathias1
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by mathias1 »

Mine has EBRO on the starter side of the block.
I guess also the rockers do have ebro on them.
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Billy26F5
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Billy26F5 »

The block, cyl. head, rocker cover, tappet cover, sump... are stamped EBRO. Only the head and block have dates.
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Philip
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

Thanks for all the info and help I appreciate it. I can't find anything else on the block. I know the rest of the tractor is a 1963 new performance super major fomoco and enfo stamps everywhere. Do you think it's a detriment to the tractor having had a replacement 1976 Ebro 55 engine in it?

shepp
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by shepp »

Hi Philip

The purists might regard it as detrimental to have an Ebro engine fitted, but bear in mind that Ford continued to assemble industrial versions of this engine at Dagenham until 1970, using all UK made bought in components. From 1970 to 1974 Ford sold Ebro produced engines as their own industrial engine, this gave the necessary 10 year supply of parts after a model was discontinued which was the standard obsolescence period in the automotive industry at the time, so obviously Ford was perfectly happy to put their name behind the Ebro engine! So new engines for the Super Major were available for a 10 year period after production of the tractor ceased. After 1974 new engines had to be sourced direct from Ebro, and I would guess many were and fitted into tractors. Some Doe Triple D tractors have had new Ebro engines fitted after the original Ford units became unserviceable, and still have them to this day.

In addition, as other parts such as kingpins became unavailable to Ford from UK sources in the 10 year obsolescence period, I think Ford would have sourced them from Ebro to sell as their own parts. So even the purists might have Ebro parts in their tractors without realising it!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Philip »

That will do for me Shep thank you very much. I will continue with the restoration and post pictures when I eventually finish her.

Billy26F5
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Billy26F5 »

I'm very happy with Billy's engine, it's 7 years younger than him although it mirrors the MK2 Ford engine (Ebro carried on making it until 1964).
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Billy26F5 »

Having a bit more information now I can confirm that the block was cast on 9 December 76 and the head on 30 December 76. The engine number 209485 fits for early 77. See what there is under injector no. 4 and what type of injector pump you have, as that will help too.
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mathias1
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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by mathias1 »

Image

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Fordson Super Major New Performance
County Super 4 built on the Fordson Super Major
Selene built on the Fordson Super Major New Performance with Silvant winch

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Re: Tractor serial number begin and end with star

Post by Billy26F5 »

Replied to this here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8626&p=61486#p61486
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