59 FPM - Smokin' like a chimney!

[LazyTRanch]

Well, with help in another thread I'd identified my tractor as a Power Major, and got it down to Jan '59.

So, today I was to meet a tractor mechanic. Said tractor mechanic flaked, but I did call him on the phone. I'm glad he didn't come as he I determined that it was the same mechanic that couldn't determine for the last owner that it wouldn't stay running because the aftermarket electric lift pump wasn't working. I personally figured that out and replaced it, and now it runs.

But, when it runs, it is smoking like crazy. Thick gray smoke. Not "steamy", but more like unburnt fuel.

I thought the timing for the injector pump may be off, but this wasn't the case. It's dead on at 23. So much for an easy fix.

I checked the engine oil for water, none. It's just super black. I think it could be the original oil

Big difference in compression between lever down and lever up so it's not totally gone.

It does like a shot of starting fluid to get started though.

So, what next oh wizards of the Fordson? I was thinking of yanking the injectors and taking them to a shop, but thought I should find out if there are other things I should check before that (and am willing to accept I could be barking up the wrong tree with the injectors.)

Thanks in advance!

[Brian]

Think the answer may be in your post. "likes starting fluid".

A Fordson Major engine rarely needs any form of starting assistance, even in fairly cold climates, and even if the engine is badly worn. They only need to go over one compression and they fire up.

From what you say, you could have "Major" engine problems. If she has been bad starting for some time, using the de-compressor to start could also have damaged the valve train.

Get the injectors checked by all means, you might need to get the pump checked as well but be aware that the fault may lie deeper.

An easy way to check the injectors is to take them out and fit them back on the pump using the pipes. Crank the engine and see if they spray or squirt. Do not get your hand or any part of your body in the mist from the injector. This can pass through the skin and cause extensive damage.

This will give you an indication of their condition.

[patch]

I didn't notice where you're from but around here a shot of starting fluid before working a Major is Georgia Mountain Peach Brandy behind the corn crib. Sorry for your troubles.

[patch]

What Timing

[LazyTRanch]

I'll pull the injectors and test them out as mentioned.

One thing I neglected to mention in the original post that I just recalled (mind finally cleared up from all that smoke earlier,) was something similar to "backfiring".

It didn't really do it that much this evening, but it has done it quite a bit in the past. It's not consistent either, but at higher throttle it tends to occur more often.

I'm also thinking of draining the tank and replacing the fuel. I've no idea for sure what the people before me put in there.

Thanks!

[Brian]

That makes me suspect valve train damage or faulty valves if your timing is right.

[LazyTRanch]

That makes me suspect valve train damage or faulty valves if your timing is right.

Would this be resolved by a "valve job" at a machine shop?

If this is so, when I pulled the head, are there other things I should look into at the same time?

[Brian]

I was thinking more of damaged rockers, push rods and cam followers rather than a grind in. I would suspect you are going to have to go deeper into the engine.

If it proves not to be the injectors, I would dismantle the engine in situ. See my Henrietts overhaul on the Wiki for pictures. That way, you can look at head and pistons. Then when you see the condition of everything, decide if you want to do the crank as well or just put her back with a set of rings.

[LazyTRanch]

I was thinking more of damaged rockers, push rods and cam followers rather than a grind in. I would suspect you are going to have to go deeper into the engine.

If it proves not to be the injectors, I would dismantle the engine in situ. See my Henrietts overhaul on the Wiki for pictures. That way, you can look at head and pistons. Then when you see the condition of everything, decide if you want to do the crank as well or just put her back with a set of rings.

Thanks. Heading off to the Wiki now!

[JC]

I have another idea about what may be wrong with your tractor. Watch this video and tell me if your tractor runs like that. The sound quality isn't very good, but it is "popping" in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bXKx-qEwM

[LazyTRanch]

I have another idea about what may be wrong with your tractor. Watch this video and tell me if your tractor runs like that. The sound quality isn't very good, but it is "popping" in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bXKx-qEwM

That is exactly what it is doing when the throttle is up a little higher, and the smoke looks exactly the same!

Not only does it look and sound like my tractor, but it even looks like the mountains up around the Shark where my tractor will live (Northern Nevada)!

[LazyTRanch]

I have another idea about what may be wrong with your tractor. Watch this video and tell me if your tractor runs like that. The sound quality isn't very good, but it is "popping" in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bXKx-qEwM

That is exactly what it is doing when the throttle is up a little higher, and the smoke looks exactly the same!

Now I didn't see it on the video's page, but when I posted it to my Facebook, it included the text "This is how a Fordson Major runs with a leak in the vacuum governor system."

So, I head off to my manual, and it states that "on early models with closed crankcase ventilation system, a leaking engine gasket will cause governer malfunction".

Well, this may be a dumb question, but could the total lack of the hose from the cover to the air filter cause this (or does the presence of that hose mean it is not a closed crankcase ventilation system)?

Edited to add: My S/N is after those that this applies to.

I'm excited, but I am trying to be cautiously optimistic. It would be awesome if it didn't involve a teardown and I could put her to work right away! People keep saying to sell it, but my son and I have already bonded with it and that would break our hearts

[Brian]

Lack of that hose will do nothing at all. All the hose does is ensure a positive engine ventilation from the front breather to the air cleaner. It won't affect the running in any way.

The pipes that could be a problem go from the governor to the manifold. But you have not said anything about excessive revs and no throttle control which are usual symptoms of faulty pipes. Still its worth a look before starting a strip down.

Another test is to put you fingers over both holes on the pump and pull the stop. If you feel suction and it holds, that would rule out your governor diaphragm.

[LazyTRanch]

Lack of that hose will do nothing at all. All the hose does is ensure a positive engine ventilation from the front breather to the air cleaner. It won't affect the running in any way.

The pipes that could be a problem go from the governor to the manifold. But you have not said anything about excessive revs and no throttle control which are usual symptoms of faulty pipes. Still its worth a look before starting a strip down.

Another test is to put you fingers over both holes on the pump and pull the stop. If you feel suction and it holds, that would rule out your governor diaphragm.

I don't know about "excessive revs", as I've not seen the tractor "normal" (it wasn't even starting when I bought it.)

I do know it has a very limited effect of the throttle through the whole range (smoky and not popping, smokier and popping... which I referred to as "backfiring".)

I'll try what you mention above.

I did have one question though that may or may not be relevant... the electric fuel lift pump that was on there before that died was replaced with the modern version of it (universal). It puts out 4-7 PSI. The manual states (if I remember correctly) 1.5 to 3 PSI. Could the increase of the fuel pressure make a difference at such low pressures?

[JC]

If the rack in the injector pump is not moving like its supposed to, it will make it run like that. The most common reason for that is a hole in the governor diaphragm, so you should test it like Brian said. A leak in the gov. pipes or housing will also do it. There are a few other things that could cause it, too. I made my tractor run like that, for the video, by loosening the bottom gov. pipe at the manifold.

[LazyTRanch]

Well, there was a little "suction" from one of the tubes. I made sure they were hooked up as in the manual to rule that out.

But, when trying the cover the holes thing, there was no suction (at any time, even when stopping.) There was no change at all when the thing was running with the tubes on or with the tubes off.

Actually, I got to run it a little longer today and it seemed the longer it ran, the higher it would rev and pop. It go so bad that it was constantly popping, flames started coming out, and the end of the "creatively crafted" exhaust started glowing red!

I would shut it down, give it time to cool, fire it up again and the same thing would happen. If it were a gas engine, I'd claim it was running extremely rich. Don't know what the term would be in diesel land, but it's like it is getting way too much fuel.

Is this sounding like a possible governor issue? I didn't pull it tonight as I wanted to come back here and check (and I've got a 3 day weekend so I'm in no rush.)

I did get a little demolition in for the friend who is letting me park it at his house until I get it running right:



That used to be a playhouse.

[Brian]

Running the tractor with the governor pipes disconnected could lead to a "Major" demolition job!! With no pipes fitted there is no control over the engine speed and it could rev to destruction!!

A Major uses the suction on those pipes to control its speed. There is no direct link from throttle control to pump. Not like a petrol engine.

It might now be an idea to remove the cover from the front of the pump where the pipes fit and inspect the governor diaphram.

[JC]

The ol' girl looks pretty good! I wish I had a loader on one of mine.
If it runs the same with the vacuum lines on or off, the gov. is probably not working. It doesn't sound like you're testing the diaphragm quite right. Here's a picture and a longer description.



Disconnect the vacuum lines (#1) from the housing. With the engine shut off, plug the two holes, that you unhooked the lines from, with your fingers. With the other hand, push the excess fuel button (#2). You should feel a slight vacuum on your fingers. When you take your fingers off the holes, you should hear a "clunk" when the gov. spring pushes the rack back.
Edit: Sorry, I started typing that before Brian posted, but he types faster than I do

[R W]

Before you run it any more I'd check the oil level in the injector pump, this is often neglected, found it to be dry on a P6 recently.
Would check valve clearance,rocker gear,pushrods, injectors & timing before pulling the head off.

[Brian]

There is NO oil in this pump!

Only pumps with a mechanical governor have oil to lubricate the governor unit. No pump uses oil to lubricate the pumping elements. This is all done by diesel.

Need for oil is a common fallacy that keeps cropping up and confusing the issue.

[LazyTRanch]

I'm hoping to get over and look at it today. The fact that it runs the same without the lines connected as with them definitely makes me think that is the (or at least a) problem. As mentioned, I've had no reference to compare to as far as normal running, but when I think back to tractors I used in years past, and "Grandpa's" tractors, it definitely isn't the gentle "purr" at idle of those. I also now know that running it like this should be avoided.

I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge that has already been provided in this thread (and my ID thread.) It has been a "Major" learning experience (I can see I'm going to have a lot of fun with that pun ).

I think I'm bit by the bug now, and am getting a little "blue". I was heading down the road yesterday and in the distance I saw a blue tractor on the side of the road and almost caused an accident gawking. But, it was "only a Ford 3000", not a Fordson. I'm also like a kid at Christmas waiting for my Fordson parts to appear with the UPS man (a hood arrived yesterday! UPS flattened one half of it, but it's here!)

So, thanks much, guys! You are highly appreciated for sharing your know-how and insight. I'll update when there is some news.

[LazyTRanch]

The ol' girl looks pretty good! I wish I had a loader on one of mine.

Thanks! Be thankful you don't have a loader when working on the engine though. I don't know how many times I've cramped up trying to contort myself into strange positions to work around it!

[Brian]

Lazy T,

No thanks really needed. If it wasn't for people like you we would have a very humdrum life

Sad isn't it

[R W]

[quote="Brian"]There is NO oil in this pump!
I DISAGREE, these pumps are filled to the drain pipe with light engine oil or 50/50 oil & diesel, often diesel leaking into this part of the pump kept things
lubricated when there was no oil.
I notice in the photo that the pump appears to be fitted with a filler plug, many were not and the side plate had to be removed to check this which is why the were usually negleted.
Most of this information was given to me by a diesel pump specialist when having the pump from a 25 year old Power Major
rebuilt in the 1970s.
A recent experience with a P6 found the lower part of the pump dry when the side plate was removed to check the correct operation of the rack.

Only pumps with a mechanical governor have oil to lubricate the governor unit. .[/quote]
At NO TIME was oil in the govenor unit mentioned.

[JC]

I knew that I shouldn't have posted the picture of that pump with lube cup on the side of it, but its the only injector pump picture that I had on this computer.
We have a Major that my dad and grandfather bought in 1966. It has never had oil added to the injector pump. Since it has run for 43 years with out an injector pump problem, I guess it didn't need any oil.