Timing

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:06 pm

Hi all, I have put the hydraullics back together although I'm not sure about the unload valve, with ball bearing in, it does not seem to go alway down to bottom of bore but unable to test, have been unable to get her to crank now, had been cranking fine except last couple of times and had cleaned tank filter, new inline filter and cleaned fuel lift pump and cranked right up. My book says to set timing of pump it is based on postion of crank pulley notch and pointer above pulley. I do not have a notch or a pointer around pulley, any suggestions although do not believe this is my problem but would like to check. Can I look at valves and determine when #1 is tdc? Going back into fuel lift pump and look at gasket, maybe not sealing. When using fuel lift pump manually fuel comes out at pump's bleed tap but with all tight pump does not seem to build up much resistence when pumping by hand. As always appreciated any advice.
Thanks

Post by **Brian** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:21 am

You will have a little door under the side channel at the back of the sump on the pump side. Through that, if you turn the enginre you will find graduation marks on the flywheel.

Check the position of the clamp bolt on the pump drive. This should be below the drive shaft when you are on No. 1 cylinder.

Line up the flywheel marks with a notch in the opening, check that the mark on the pump lines up.

Make sure you have bled the system right down to the pump at both sides of the filter and the pump bleed. Allow plenty of diesel to come out to expell all the air.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:14 pm

Thanks Brian, I will see if I can find opening to flywheel. When you say when I'm on #1 cylinder, is this the same as when the marks on flywheel line up with notch in opening? Sorry if this is dumb ? but I have learned not to assume. I did have to replace the fiber connection at pump when I first got her but has always run with no problem but now with your help I can see if all lines up.
Again your help is greatly appreciated.
Gerald

Post by **Brian** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:40 am

The marks on the flywheel line up in two places. 23 degrees BTDC on number one and on number four, but the pump can only be timed on number one.

You will see a lot of posts on the site saying that the timing is out by 180 degrees when the tractor won't start after the bump has been off or the coupling replaced. This is because people have not checked which cylinder is BTDC.

The easy way to tell which is correct is to look at the clamp bolt on the pump drive. If it is above the shaft its number four, below the shaft number one.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Thanks Brian, timing is 23 with clamp bolt on bottom, seems to have compression while turning over by hand. I looked back at fuel lift pump, seal does need replacing, I can see fuel come out around outside when pumping. Should fuel fill bowl just from gravity, had to pump to get bowl full, not much resistence when pumping but guessing that is because of bad seal. Would this keep her from cranking?
Thanks as always.
Gerald

Post by **Brian** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:05 pm

The bowl does not fill with gravity, you do have to pump it. Make sure you have a good bleed right up to the pump. Let a fair bit of diesel out. She should then start.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:01 pm

Thanks Brian, I'm getting a good flow of fuel at bleed on pump but not starting. When it did this before taking off hydraulics I drained fuel, cleaned tap filter, new fuel filter and bleed, started right up making me hope it is not something with valve train or inside engine although some years ago did have one rod to bend, valve seemed to be stuck. I'm going to drain fuel again and put new fuel just purchased but don't really think fuel is problem. Reading manual, maybe injectors so unless I figure it out bonnet comes off next but spending too much time on her, may just hook chain to her and pull it to the side. Reading other post to see if I can pick up any help. If diaphram in governor or fuel pickup is bad would this keep her from cranking?
Thanks to all on this site, I have learned more in the last couple of months than I did over past 20 years of owning her.
Gerald

Post by **Brian** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:19 pm

Don't think you have an engine problem or injectors. You may have a stuck rack or pumping elements in the pump. Are you getting any smoke? By now, if fuel was getting to the engine you should be getting lots of white smoke.

This is also the only time when I would use a little ether and see if she would fire on that. She may then go ahead once she has run.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:59 pm

Thanks Brian, yea she is puffing some white smoke as it turns over, could this also indicate head gasket problem?
Looking at fault diagnosis in manual, it refers to control rod being stuck in pump, is this the same as stuck rack? I understand it should be in a clean environment before taking cover off of pump and I probably should have more knowledge. Can the stuck rack be taken care of without going into pump? Thanks for your advice, I have always tried to avoid use of ether in the past but if after some more attempts at trying to get her going will give it a shot so to speak. I'm giving up soon if can't ger her going, just the fact she was cranking makes me feel it is something I should be able to resolve, maybe some air still getting in at lift pump. I can not thank you enough for all of your help.
Gerald

henk · Post by **henk** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:14 pm

Brian,

Is it all right to assume that if the timing gears are lined up with there mark that the mark on the pump has to be in line? Or do I have to use the methode you discribed.
Mine is about half an inch after the mark on the pump.

Post by **Brian** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:47 am

The timing gears are all keyed to the shafts or on a dowel, so the only way the initial timing can be out is if the gears were not lined up when she was assembled.

The flywheel is also dowelled on so that cannot be wrong unless someone has removed the dowels and put them back wrongly.

If you set the flywheel at 23 degrees on No.1,then the pump marks should be in line.

I have seen couplings on the pump wear and the drive key way in the shaft wear but the marks should still be somewhere near right.

Your tractor runs well Henk, with no smoke or nasty noises, it also starts well from what I have seen. So the timing cannot be far out. If it was around 2 degrees out either way, you would know all about it.

henk · Post by **henk** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:05 pm

Today I got the front back together again. After I have put some cooling in, I started here up and off she went. Runs like she use to. It gives you a kick when you here that sound after you have rebuild the tractor.

On 23 degrees the marks are in line. Nut number 1 (nearest to the tank) tipping with both valves the marks are about 10mm up out of line, just as I line up the gearwheels on the marks.

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:53 pm

Hi guys,

Today we tried to start up the 590e.
We had the flywheel and distribution gears on time. The claw bolt was also in place.
We bleeded the system till the injection.

Unfortunately he wouldn't start..

We saw a lot of white smoke. We figured the pump wasn't on time.
We took the axle between pump and distribution and move the pump one step. That didn't worked.
We figured out, the would probably be 12 possibilities so we did this 12 times...no result. The only difference was that sometimes there was a lot of white smoke and somtimes less.

We tried some start pilot and the engine runned a bit, but seemed to be off timing.

I guess I removed the pump, without setting it on time first..

Are there any marks on the pump, to figure out the correct timing?

You help will be very much appreciated!

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:48 pm

The pump driveflange has a mark that aligns to the tinplate when the mark at the flywheel is in place. Do NOT use startpilot it will destroy your engine. After bleeding the fuelsystem you should use the cold start button and have full throttle when starting. Dont forget to have the stoplever in run position.

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:11 am

Hi Grani,

Thank you for your quick respons!

I know about the start pilot...

we were a little desperate..

I think I noticed the mark. I tought we had it right.
Isn't it possible, that if you turn the pump and get the mark right, inside the pump the configuration is not right?
I guess the pump has 4 positions per stroke?
If you turn it around one time, couldn't the fuel pump be in position 2 in stead of position 1 for example? I guess, that if the
cylinder is in position 1 the engine will not start?

Is 't an good idea to remove the inspection plate? Maybe that helps us a bit?

Thank you in advance!

Emiel · Post by **Emiel** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:51 am

Hi Pascal,

We had almost the same problem with our AC B. There everything was correct, as it seemed, but it wouldn't run.

After much seeking, the magneto seemed to be 360 degrees out of timing, compared to the crankshaft. Remedy was to take it of, turn the engine one full revolution and put it back on.

The position is then the same on the marks, but as the magneto (and so does the injection pump) turns on half engine speed, the firing/injection will be when there is compression. In the previous situation this was when piston in top with exhaust valve open.

This might have occured to you.

Easy way to check is to take the valve cover off and the injection pipes. Then you can see the positon of the valves in relation to the injector pump giving diesel.

Regards

Emiel

Post by **Brian** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:34 am

With the clamp bolt towards the underside of the drive shaft you are on No 1. That is a constant with all those engines. If you line up the marks on the pump, that too will be on No1.

You may have her a couple of degrees out but it should not be that far out.

Don't worry! If I bring Dotty over, I can tow you to Meddo

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:08 am

Hi guys,

Thank you for your advices!
I'll ty to sort my problem out.

I'll keep you updated!

Brian,
It will be an honour if you would tow me with Dotty!

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:09 am

Hi guys,

With your help, my cousin got my 590e 'on time' yesterday.
I have heard, that she's running, after more than 30 years! Although she's running a bit irregular, it seems. Perhaps some dirt in the fuel pump?

I'll go and look for myself tonight and bring her home.
I'll keep you updated.

Thank you for your help!

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Fri May 15, 2015 11:53 am

Another old post.

The Fordson Tractor Pages Forum

Timing

Timing

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