Super Major - DAR fitment

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:22 pm

Brian (or indeed anyone else who may happen to know) I have yet to fit the new DAR valve to the Roadless, however just wondered about its operation. In order to raise pressure to the DAR valve do the arms need to be fully raised, or is there pressure available all the time. In short is the DAR valve function completely separate to the lift arm position?
I assume once fitted the small lever and linkage from main hydraulics lever to original auxiliary valve becomes redundant and can be removed altogether (forgive my ignorance in not knowing their correct terms)?
Many thanks,
Ed

Post by **Brian** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:38 pm

Ed,

The DAR should function without the lever being fully raised as it takes the oil before it gets to the ram cylinder. I will check Dotty in the morning to be double sure as I was lifting right up before turning the plough and sitting at the keyboard sometimes causes mental blanks to occur.

Yes the flow control linkage is redundant as you now don't have a flow control.

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:24 am

Thanks Brian, there is a flow control for the DAR output on the main body of the valve.
Did the flow control on the original valve affect both lift arms and auxiliary service or just the latter? I have yet to find one (mine included) which isnt seized up and hence am unsure of its exact function!
My roadless is (incorrectly) fitted with a later top cover which incorporated drop control (large alloy knurled knob) to slow up the drop.
Any further info gladly received.
PS thanks for sorting out the valve!

Post by **Brian** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:12 am

I have just done a bit on flow controls on the Dexta forum. Funny how things come in clusters.

The flow control on the standard auxiliary service plate controlled the flow to the lift cylinder and also auxiliary services.

The one on the DAR valve only controls the output to the pipes.

The New Performance top cover had a drop restrictor, as you say, which controlled the flow of oil out of the ram cylinder.

We tend to forget that DAR valves were rarely fitted as there was not the requirement for them back then. Most ploughs were manual turnover and loaders were also manually operated.

It wasn't until the late 1970's that they became more common.

One thing to remember, if you use a trailer and tip it using the DAR, the pipe not fitted to the trailer must have a pipe to allow the pressure on that side to return to the rear axle when you lower the trailer.

Otherwise you will permanently damage the DAR.

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:24 am

That is certainly worth knowing, so if being used on a single acting cylinder the unused port on the DAR should be connected to dump into the rear axle?
Many modern tractors have double acting spools these days as standard, often incorporating a "float" position which saves the hyd. pump if only using 1 side of the spool - eg on a trailer ram. As you are probably aware a lot of these spools usually have a detent position (for constant flow applications) and I have seen a few cooked rear ends on later fords when a spool has been left in "pump down".
Does the relief valve not protect the DAR? I can imagine over time it would give the MRV and the pump a hard time if used on a single acting cylinder frequently.
Very interesting info,
Thanks
Ed

Post by **Brian** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:43 am

Yes the relief valve protects the DAR but pumping even 5 gal/min through a 1/4" hole creats a lot of heat.

With our DAR's there is no bypass port as there was in the later units so you are "deadheading" on the pressure port, at the same time trying to get oil back down through the opened one. The oil under pressure flows back across the spool and eventually scores it.

Foxen · Post by **Foxen** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:54 am

I've always wondered about this DAR valve, where does it connect to on the hydraulics? I mean, where on the lid does it get it's oil from and where does the return pipe fit to?

A picture with an explanation of which pipe is which would help heaps, pretty pretty please with sugar on top?

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:34 pm

Here are a couple of shots of a DAR fitted to the back half of a Doe triple D I spotted at a recent machinery sale, it just bolts on in place of the ordinary flow control valve:

Foxen · Post by **Foxen** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:50 pm

Thanks for the images m8e

Still, it doesn't look like the one I've seen picture in the spare parts list... There are two pipes with banjo fittings that supposedly bolts onto somewhere other than the upper lid with the flow rate and external hydraulics outlet...

Was looking for a printout of the catalogue to post here and realized that the thing I was looking for is called "dual auxiliary service"...
I guess by the pipe that goes around and is angled at front is connecting to the outlet from the aux valve in the lid, but where does the return pipe from it connect to?

[EDIT]
Got a printout of it now:

What I am specifically looking for is where the return pipe from this fits to since it seems to be a "put your quadrant in a constant flow position and use the two other ones to steer stuff"(which would require a return pipe from this assembly)

Sorry for hijacking your thread, I thought that this was the same thing as the DAR valve but was wrong...

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:06 pm

This is the only type of DAR that I know of for the fordson. The later 1000'nd series fords used a different valve, located in the same way. They all get their oil supply internally, and the return is internal too. The only pipework is for the external services, one supplies, one retunrs depending on the direction you pull the lever.

Tmac · Post by **Tmac** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:15 pm

I have a DAR on my SMD. Mine has locking detents in both for and aft position. When the cyl ends the movement in either direction the handle snaps to the off position automatically. This valve also has a screw on its left side to provide one hose operation, ie lift up fall down. When the screw is in and tight it will act in both directions. The valve allows the 3 pt to work at all times, except when either is being used. Its like one or the other. My valve has a FoMoCo P/N cast into it. My valve appears to be the same or similar to the one pictured in the SMD shop manual,

Foxen · Post by **Foxen** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:36 pm

Tmac wrote:

I have a DAR on my SMD. Mine has locking detents in both for and aft position. When the cyl ends the movement in either direction the handle snaps to the off position automatically. This valve also has a screw on its left side to provide one hose operation, ie lift up fall down. When the screw is in and tight it will act in both directions. The valve allows the 3 pt to work at all times, except when either is being used. Its like one or the other. My valve has a FoMoCo P/N cast into it. My valve appears to be the same or similar to the one pictured in the SMD shop manual,

That sounds more like it, does your tractor still have the small lid with the auxiliary valve or is there another lid fitted?

Where does the valve you have get it's pressure from and where to does it's return pipe go? I'm mostly interested in where the return pipe goes since I was thinking of drilling a hole in the side of the hydraulics lid and fit a pipe coupling there and route it to the rear and then add a quick coupling there for a return if using an implement with it's own valves(ie, something that needs a return pipe), but if these add-on valves already tap into some coupling somewhere to dump their return oil I guess that will be a smarter place to connect my return pipe(because then it will most likely circulate through the return oil filter inside the transmission)

Was the above understandable at all, or did I just ramble?

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:53 pm

This is the hydraulic block on my tractor during the mounting.
It's from a Ford 3000. There a bolt in front to set it on single or dual.
Don't know if it's called DAR?

A friend of mine has this one. From a Ford 5000

Foxen · Post by **Foxen** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:27 pm

"Ebbeh"... Does this simply mean that I can go to whichever scrap-yard and rip off a control block like that from a Ford 1000-series and transplant it happily on my -62 Super Major without trouble? If so this is _GRAND_ news

One thing though, those two blocks in the above pictures, are they from pre -68 1000-series tractors or does it fit no matter what year/model?

Post by **Brian** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:39 pm

You have to be careful, this has come up before. Not all '000 series valves fit on the earlier tractors, there are some porting changes on the mating surface.

We have had cases where the valve works but the lift will not. Sometimes the valve needs an adapter plate between.

Foxen · Post by **Foxen** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:03 am

Brian wrote:You have to be careful, this has come up before. Not all '000 series valves fit on the earlier tractors, there are some porting changes on the mating surface.

We have had cases where the valve works but the lift will not. Sometimes the valve needs an adapter plate between.

Then I'd guess that means the valve block must come off a Pre-Force 1000-series tractor then...(65-68), that narrows the options down a bit...

Kjetil · Post by **Kjetil** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:16 pm

Tmac, do you have a picture of your DAR?

What is the difference between a DAR (Dual acting ram) and a Fordson Dual Auxilliary service?

I have a DAR similar to the one shown for the Doe. When I compare the connection face on the DAR with the standard auxillary service plate, the size of the DAR is different. Some part of the DARs connection face extends outside the face on the top cover of the tractor. I have some photos showing it, but have never been able to put photos on the forum.

Kjetil

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 am

Just been looking at the diagram for the dual auxiliary service. I must say I've never seen or heard of it before, not on a tractor or in a book! The valves appear to be the same as used on the earlier fordsons when a second spool was used, bolted on like a sandwich to the normal 3pt lift lever. These valves appear to be used on their own in this application. The feed presumably comes from the auxiliary outlet supply on the normal super major aux.valve. Just going by the orientation and layout of pipes I would say the DAS (as I am shortening it to) would be mounted to the LHS of the seat. The return must go into a tapping behind the seat, probably an adapted filler plug as I dont know of another tapping for a return.
Interesting to see the diagram you have posted up. I wonder if these valves gave a double or single acting supply. On the old diesel major the was only a single acting supply available.

Foxen · Post by **Foxen** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:38 am

This thing could have been exclusively swedish aswell as the printout is from my spare parts book for super major and I haven't found this in the one that's listed here... there are a number of other differences between the spare parts lists aswell, like the spindle numbers... 3107/3105 and 3108/3106

Anyways, I'm off to wreac havoc on my old man today, will be fitting my return pipe to the hydraulics lid(drill hole, tap, screw in fitting) since there doesn't seem to be a way of adding it to the existing plumbing...

Post by **Brian** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:02 pm

There seems to be a bit of confusion here.

DAS (Dual Auxiliary Service) is for FMD and Power Major tractors. It gave you a second auxiliary service port independent to the lift arm circuit which was where the original one was tapped to, This is a single acting service, power up, gravity down. The valve in the diagram Foxem posted is this type of valve. It will not work a double acting ram.

DAR (Double Acting Ram) valve is for Super Majors and Dextas and also on the later series tractors. Ford used different designs for the European and US markets.

A DAR valve replaces the auxiliary service plate and takes its feed direct from the pump, before the lift cylinder. The return to tank is internal within the valve and lift top cover. Some of these units have different porting that does not allow units to be swapped from E1A tractors to X and Y series tractors.

DAR units have two pipes, depending on the lever position, either can be pressure or return. When fitted to a DAR cylinder, the ram can be moved in either direction as the valve changes either port from pressure to return. So neither pipe is a true pressure only pipe or a true return pipe.

If you are using a single acting ram eg. a trailer, on the earlier valve as fitted to the Super Major or Dexta, the second pipe, not being used to tip the trailer, must be connected to tank otherwise the pressure builds up in the valve as the trailer is lowered, due to "dead heading" in the unused pipe. If you want to use a single acting ram on tractors fitted with the earlier valve, connect a pipe back into the rear axle through the filler plug and plug this into the unused pipe.

The tractor PR Valve will be blowing off, the shuttle valve in the DAR valve will not be able to completely move, oil is forced by the valve lands and the spool becomes eroded. This causes terminal damage and valve failure. We had this happen a number of times when these valves were used to run hydraulic motors or other services, with the levers tied back.

The X and Y series valves addressed this problem by adding a bypass valve to the DAR which allowed one port to be opened to tank by adjusting a screw valve located on the front of the valve body. The instructions for use, either single or double acting screw positions are cast into the top of the valve. These are the valves in Pascal's pictures, the earlier DAR valve for the Super is the one pictured on the Doe or here, on Dotty,

Port differences between X series (left) and Super Major/Dexta (right).

Dandy Dave · Post by **Dandy Dave** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:48 pm

I've been following this with great interest. I never realized that there were so many different remote cylinder valves for the Fordson Majors. My Power Major is fitted with a double acting ram valve and has two pipes comming directly out of the top of it. It must have been an option, or adapted to the tractor shortly after the tractor was built as I know the History of the Tractor as it belonged to my ex wifes family since the early 60's. I'm not sure what to make of it with all the information that has been posted. Also, none of the valves so far pictured look like it either. I run an angle cylinder on a york rake with the valve. I would Post a photo, but I have been having problem with the places I have tried to upload the photos to. The one I was use to using for so long just dissapeared one day and was getting hard to upload anything to the last 6 months or so. I've tried one other, but it Seems like the photos just vanish in a day or less. Dandy Dave!

Post by **Brian** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:18 pm

Dave,

There were also "dealer fitted" valves, McConell made one for the Major that gave a two way operation and Ford US had their own designed and "dealer fitted" units. I have seen pictures of valves that were never offered over here. The ones we have mentioned are the "common" ones.

Roadless63 · Post by **Roadless63** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:06 pm

This is turning into a very informative and interesting thread. Thanks Brian as usual for your clear and concise input.
I found a good article somewhere on the manuals section of this site once and printed out a whole section on the use and function of the DAR valve. Looks like it was part of a Dexta manual.
The mcconnell valve you mention is a constant flow unit, suitable for earlier majors. Will post a picture.

Brian - if you look more closely at the picture of the DAS, it is not the unit designed for the early E1A majors, this looks like an adaption to be used "stand-alone" with feed and return pipes to the unit. Also shows a mounting bracket which would not be needed if used with diesel/power major hydraulic system. Hence I said I hadn't come accross this set-up before. What do you think?

Kjetil · Post by **Kjetil** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:15 pm

Foxen, the spare parts manual you have taken the drawing from is available on this forum:

http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/manua ... s_list.htm

see page 30

on page 31 it says it is available for models produced from 11/60, which should be Super Majors.

It should be nice to sort out if it is an error in the spare part manual.

Kjetil

Post by **Brian** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:57 pm

Yes, I would agree with your comments but the porting layout is for a FMD or Power Major.

I think I see the answer, there is a plate, E285WP9 that blanks off the valve porting for the FMD/Power Major, and the valve system is fed from the Super auxillary chest via pipe E288WP9 return to tank is via E90WP9 into the filler cap.

It looks like Ford was using up old Power Major parts on the later tractor. It is only single acting on both levers though.

You learn something new every day on this site. I have never seen this in all my years, on a Super but many times on a Power Major. Must have been a massive lump on the front of the lift with the levers going vertical between the drivers legs. The lower bracket looks like it bolts to the gearbox/rear axle flange.