hydraulic pump removal

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

hydraulic pump removal

Post by Gman »

Hello eveyone, if my parts arrive as scheduled I plan to remove hydraulic pump and replace all seals and o rings. Asking for the pros and cons of removing by taking it out of the top or bottom. Because I will not have help or lift, removing top lid could be a problem for me. Although I feel better about doing it out of the top, because removing the pto shaft to take it out of the bottom concerns me, have never taken pto out before. Don't want to create more problems with removing pto shaft. If I remove pto shaft, should it be engaged when removing, manual I have says make sure it is engaged when replacing. Any advice, suggestions or tips will greatly be appreciated.
Thanks
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Brian
Grumpy
Grumpy
Posts: 5216
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, England.

Post by Brian »

The PTO just pulls out and pushes back in no problem. Its better to be in gear as it helps to line up the splines when you put it back.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian

Foxen
True Blue
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:10 am
Location: Scania, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Foxen »

I can second what Brian says about leaving the PTO in gear, it's very frustrating when the inner shaft end spins around while trying to assemble it and the splines hit eachother :/
Essex Lily - Super Major -62 (No. 1618924)
Mr Fordson - Super Dexta -64(dad's)
"Si is est non infractus , effrego is quod animadverto si vos can redintegro is!"
<Ut simplex, validus quod constanter ut ferrum talea campester = Super Major>

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Thanks Brian and Foxen. Unless I can get some help I know I will have to take it out of the bottom which will require removal of draw bar also. Do you recommend taking it out of the top or bottom? I do have a hand winch I could maybe take top off with. I know I can get it off of the pedestal if I take it out of the bottom, is there plenty of room to get wrench on it from top or will I need special tool? Once I get pump out I'm sure I will be asking for more help. Thank you so much for the advice.
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Ian
True Blue
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Post by Ian »

the top is very heavy !
You wouldn't be able to lift it on your own. I'd go in from the bottom.

Foxen
True Blue
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:10 am
Location: Scania, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Foxen »

Gman wrote:Thanks Brian and Foxen. Unless I can get some help I know I will have to take it out of the bottom which will require removal of draw bar also. Do you recommend taking it out of the top or bottom? I do have a hand winch I could maybe take top off with. I know I can get it off of the pedestal if I take it out of the bottom, is there plenty of room to get wrench on it from top or will I need special tool? Once I get pump out I'm sure I will be asking for more help. Thank you so much for the advice.
You don't need to remove the drawbar in order to remove it from the underside, just take out the pins that hold the drawbar carrier in the rear end and let it rest on the floor(without the drawbar in it), loosen the bolts that hold the pedestal to the rear axle housing after having pulled the pto shaft, you might have to wedge it loose with a knife if the gasket has set(my personal experience tho is that whatever gasket material they used for the pedestal and wire mesh lid did was too "firm" in it's structure), then make your own gaskets when assembling it, there should be no obvious obstacles since you have a power major, if it had been a super major the lid would have had to come off since the pressure pipe is bolted onto the pump rather than stuck into a hole up top of it...

The picture below depicts what the pump and plumbing looks like in a super major backend, yours will have a pipe with o-rings fitted in grooves in either end that goes directly from the pump and up into the lid, not bolted on.

Image
Essex Lily - Super Major -62 (No. 1618924)
Mr Fordson - Super Dexta -64(dad's)
"Si is est non infractus , effrego is quod animadverto si vos can redintegro is!"
<Ut simplex, validus quod constanter ut ferrum talea campester = Super Major>

maddyn99
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:57 pm
Location: Texas

Post by maddyn99 »

I did mine by taking the top off, but here is what a Power Major looks like.


The bottom after reassemble.

Image

Top part with tube. Note tube just slides into PTO pump and top with an O ring.

Image

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Thanks all, the pics are very helpful. One thing I see is the gear being so close to the housing makes me concerned if I can get a gear puller on it. If I'm just replacing o rings will I need to pull the gear off? Again thanks.
Gman: 1959 Power Major

maddyn99
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:57 pm
Location: Texas

Post by maddyn99 »

Gman wrote:Thanks all, the pics are very helpful. One thing I see is the gear being so close to the housing makes me concerned if I can get a gear puller on it. If I'm just replacing o rings will I need to pull the gear off? Again thanks.
If your talking about the BIG gears they just slide off once you loosen the nut. The nut is a counter clockwise if I remember right.

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

maddyn99 wrote:
Gman wrote:Thanks all, the pics are very helpful. One thing I see is the gear being so close to the housing makes me concerned if I can get a gear puller on it. If I'm just replacing o rings will I need to pull the gear off? Again thanks.
If your talking about the BIG gears they just slide off once you loosen the nut. The nut is a counter clockwise if I remember right.
Thanks maddyn99, no I'm looking at the gear on the pump that the pto drives.
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Hello everyone, hope all is going great for you. After many weeks of my o rings being mailed around they showed up to me yesterday, just in time for us to have 90 degree weather so I have to also fight the sweat in my eyes. I put o rings in oil to soak and hope to pull pto out when I get home today since I am going to have to take pump out of the bottom, going to try and take pictures of process. I have never pulled pto and understand it should just pull out. Does anyone have a picture of what it will look like? Is there just the gear and bearing that drives the pump on it or will there be other bearings or gears that should come out with it? Any advice or do's and don'ts on removing and rebuilding pump is greatly appreciated. Thanks to all
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Ian
True Blue
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Post by Ian »

I have never pulled pto and understand it should just pull out.
Yeah it just pulls out. Make sure you drain the oil or something first. If you undo the 4 bolts and can't pull it out. Get a block of wood and hammer on the corner to twist the whole thing. Then you can knock it out with a hammer from the bottom. But with any luck it'll just pull clean out. To get it back in again, you'll want to push the shaft in, then push down on the end to lift it up slightly inside the tractor. It'll slot in fine then. Good luck :)

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Hello all, I'm going to try to put pictures on here:
My 1959 Power Major
Image

PTO shaft pulled out:Image
[/img][/url]

Inside after pto shaft pulled you can see bottom of pump:
Image




Pump and pedestal removed from bottom:
Image

And then the sad news, crack in pump body:
Image
Image

I guess I will be in search of a pump, I'm correct this crack can not be repaired? If I can find a pump body can the bearings and gears be used from mine? I'm told the local NH dealer has a Fordson in his junk, not sure of year or model. Does anyone know what years and models would have this pump in it. I know there were conversions kits for the later pumps but doubt I would be able to find one if I did find the later pump. Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I plan to put it back in for now until I can replace it, she was lifting my bush hog enough that I could use it and have been pulling trees out.
Thanks for everyones help in the past.
Gerald
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Brian
Grumpy
Grumpy
Posts: 5216
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, England.

Post by Brian »

That pump went out of production in the early 1960's. It was replaced by the Super Major pump and a right angle elbow to take the stack pipe.

You would need to find someone who is breaking a Fordson Major or a Power Major.

You might be lucky at British Tractor Wreckers. Google them and see if they can help.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Thanks Brian, I have emailed British Tractor. I'm going back to the local New Holland dealer and see what he has. He told me when I was ordering parts he had a Fordson out back if I wanted it. Would any 1950's Fordson model pump be the same or if I can find a 1950's pump body will my gears and bearings fit?

Also to anyone out there, make sure your unloading valve is not rusted closed if it has been sitting for years like mine had, I believe this is what caused my pump to crack.

Thanks Brian for all your help, she would not be running if not for you.
Gerald
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Ian
True Blue
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Post by Ian »

I've seen pumps on ebay before. A few people break and sell the bits there.

Brian
Grumpy
Grumpy
Posts: 5216
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, England.

Post by Brian »

You cannot change parts between pumps and be sure to get a working one.

Each set of pump gears were matched to the housing by a slightly crude method.

They fitted the gears in a new housing and turned them, letting them cut their individual profile on bearings and housing.

If you had a new pump housing and bearings, you could use old gears but old gears in an already worn housing can give you real problems.

If you can get a complete pump it would be best.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Brian wrote:You cannot change parts between pumps and be sure to get a working one.

Each set of pump gears were matched to the housing by a slightly crude method.

They fitted the gears in a new housing and turned them, letting them cut their individual profile on bearings and housing.

If you had a new pump housing and bearings, you could use old gears but old gears in an already worn housing can give you real problems.

If you can get a complete pump it would be best.
Thanks Brian. Do you think the unloading valve being rusted closed would have cracked my pump? I would have thought something else like an o ring would have gave under preasure before the pump would crack. Anyway if I can get a used pump can I mount a preasure gage somehow on the valve chest in order for me to watch for too much preasure in the future? Thanks for all of your advice in the past, as you can see in my picture she has good power pulling.
Thanks again,
Gerald
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Brian
Grumpy
Grumpy
Posts: 5216
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, England.

Post by Brian »

Yes.

I have fitted a brand new pump on a Ford 4000, I had the pressure gauge on the tapping to check the pressure. The 4000 pump came with a brand new Pressure Relief Valve but no-one at Fords had cleaned the ali swarf out of it after the pump had been "Run In".

I turned the engine over on the starter motor and heard a click. The pressure gauge needle was way over the 10,000 psi top limit and the gauge was toast, so was the new hydraulic pump. After that we always took a new ex-stores PRV with us and fitted that, brought the "new" one back out of the pump and checked it before returning it to stores.

Your gauge fits in the valve chest just under your left thigh. Large hexagon headed plug. I have a fitting in mine for the trailer pipe.

Image

Fit the gauge and then lift the lift lever slowly, the pressure should rise and at around 2200 psi it should drop sharply with a "click".

Much like the sound of a cracking pump. :run:
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian

TOH
True Blue
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:07 pm
Location: Finland

Post by TOH »

I remember reading somewhere that you can make some sort of collar or band that fits around a cracked pump squeezing it tight. Doesn't sound too far fetched to me. At least it would stop it cracking further while you're looking for a new one. As for the cause of cracking, in colder climates pumps can also crack when there is excess water in the bottom of the sump and it freezes.

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Thanks Brian, isn't the threads on the valve chest at this location, I don't remember exact term, British threads? I plan to get a pressure gauge and install. I'm headed to look at a Fordson, not sure of model, was told the engine crank is bad. They told me $600 for all, will not part out, so I might be in the breaker business. Of course the pump could be bad in it also.
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Ian
True Blue
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Post by Ian »

If you count the turns per inch, and measure the width of the thread just with a ruler, you can work out what thread type it is. Google some charts on threads, u can look up the values.

It's probably BSW thread though.

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

Ian wrote:If you count the turns per inch, and measure the width of the thread just with a ruler, you can work out what thread type it is. Google some charts on threads, u can look up the values.

It's probably BSW thread though.
Thanks Ian, that is it, When I worked on the valve chest the washer under the screw head was BSW. I looked at the Fordson the local guy has, it is a Major Diesel, has raised pto but the tractor is in numerous pieces, the whole back end is in one piece, bonnet and nose cone has badges, one casting code I noted was D16A. I feel it would be a gamble to purchase and with my luck the hydraulic pump would be bad and he will not part it out, it is all or nothing.
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Brian
Grumpy
Grumpy
Posts: 5216
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, England.

Post by Brian »

That makes her a 1957 April machine.

A raised PTO is worth a fair bit too.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian

Gman
True Blue
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: South Carolina, United States

Post by Gman »

If the original hydraulic pump is in her would it be the same as mine? The engine was on the ground and I could not see if injector pump was there, could see pipes coming up the side. Head,oil pan, Lucas generator was there. Everything from fuel tank back was intack with valve chest, lift arms, raised pto, draw bar, wings and wheels, tires were in bad shape. Gauges different from mine, these were down below fuel tank. Moving it would be a problem for me but this guy is in the towing business and is only 5 miles from where I live. I didn't get to see him, thought I might make offer if he would bring it to me on roll back. Anyway I really don't need another project, not looking to try and sell on ebay, but if hydraulic pump is good it would be worth my time and $ I beleive.
Gman: 1959 Power Major

Post Reply