hydraulic pump removal
Hello to all, I guess I should do a wiki on this hydraulic pump job. One thing, if you can do the job from the top I believe that is the way to go, trying to put it in from the bottom is not easy. I reinstalled the pump I took out of the Major, it was dark and was not able to try and pick any thing heavy up. Put oil in and started her up. I have attached a pressure gage to valve chest and with nothing on lift arms the arms went up and the pressure maxed out at 1900 psi at which time the pressure dropped to a very low psi, does this sound right? How does it keep something lifted with this low psi, does pressure stay up in the ram cylinder? This morning the lift arms were still all the way up which made me feel good but until I put weight on her this evening I don't want to say I have sovled my hydraulic problem. Thanks to everyone.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
That is just about spot on. The pressure is about 2000 to 2100 psi. That is the maximum pressure, the forces used to lift the implement on the lift arms is normally much less than that even with a heavy implement because the pressure in the ram cylinder is multiplied by the geometry of the lift arms.
If you want to increase the pressure then you put shims on top of the unload valve spring.
The fact that the pressure rises and then drops off shows that the unload valve is working. Pressure does not hold the implement up, it only lifts it. The oil trapped within the lift cylinder by the valve system is what holds the lift up.
It is not an easy job to replace the pump from the top or bottom, both involve heavy lifting but the bottom way is the lightest load. Once or twice in the past, when I was young and foolish, I have removed and replaced a Super lift with no lifting tools, just by brute strenght. Not any more!
If you want to increase the pressure then you put shims on top of the unload valve spring.
The fact that the pressure rises and then drops off shows that the unload valve is working. Pressure does not hold the implement up, it only lifts it. The oil trapped within the lift cylinder by the valve system is what holds the lift up.
It is not an easy job to replace the pump from the top or bottom, both involve heavy lifting but the bottom way is the lightest load. Once or twice in the past, when I was young and foolish, I have removed and replaced a Super lift with no lifting tools, just by brute strenght. Not any more!
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
Thanks Brian, I will see this evening if she will lift weight. Also to all, in my statement that I believe it is better to do this job from top, I should have also said as long as you have help or lift with the top. I believe it would be easier to put the pump back in from the top. Brian if there is anything off the Major you need and it would be something I'm not using send me a private message, well I guess as long it is not to heavy to ship to your side of the world. Anyway wanted to offer with all the help you have given me.
Thanks
Thanks
Gman: 1959 Power Major
She lifted bush hog and box blade with no problem although not sure if everything is right. Pressure would max out at 1900psi but did not drop back like it did without weight on it. When I moved control lever to neutral then the pressure would drop. I don't believe unloading valve is stuck closed because pressure does max out, it does not continue to rise. Anyway I'm happy the pump is working and with pressure gage I attached I can watch for excessive psi. Thanks and good luck with your projects.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
OK, I've read all this with great interest. Here's my story. And I believe it to be a similar situation.
I bought a 1961 Super Major in the summer of 2008. Ser # 1642672.
After getting it home I discovered that the motor was pretty tired, but everything else worked. (Had severe blow by on #3 and #4 cyls). The old girl hadn’t had much TLC and, since all the fluids were milky, I got a drum of 30wt and filters and changed everything. The hydraulic/differential reservoir had a lot of water as did the transmission. Now, with all new fluids we’re ready to go.
Dragged trees all summer and (since I live in the NE) thought to find a back blade the next spring. Also ordered the motor rebuild kit for use in the spring. BUT. in the spring the hydraulics no longer worked!! Nothing!!
OK, let’s check the oil. Hmm….full. OK, it sat all winter, I’ll pull the plug and see what I find. WOW. During the winter about a gallon of water had settled out so I drained it all and changed it again. Still nothing.
Since I found more water (that I’m sure was ice earlier) I’m pretty convinced that either an “O” ring was frozen and displaced or the pump has set up or broken.
Now that the motor has been redone and it runs like a top I’d like the rest of it to work.
The pump gears are engaging but there doesn’t seem to be any pressures anywhere. Does any one have any suggestions?
I don’t seem to be able to find a lot of info or pictures of the complete hydraulic system, so I’m kinda in the dark. And, pulling the top off the rear end without some kind of a road map is rather daunting!
Thanks, Bill
I bought a 1961 Super Major in the summer of 2008. Ser # 1642672.
After getting it home I discovered that the motor was pretty tired, but everything else worked. (Had severe blow by on #3 and #4 cyls). The old girl hadn’t had much TLC and, since all the fluids were milky, I got a drum of 30wt and filters and changed everything. The hydraulic/differential reservoir had a lot of water as did the transmission. Now, with all new fluids we’re ready to go.
Dragged trees all summer and (since I live in the NE) thought to find a back blade the next spring. Also ordered the motor rebuild kit for use in the spring. BUT. in the spring the hydraulics no longer worked!! Nothing!!
OK, let’s check the oil. Hmm….full. OK, it sat all winter, I’ll pull the plug and see what I find. WOW. During the winter about a gallon of water had settled out so I drained it all and changed it again. Still nothing.
Since I found more water (that I’m sure was ice earlier) I’m pretty convinced that either an “O” ring was frozen and displaced or the pump has set up or broken.
Now that the motor has been redone and it runs like a top I’d like the rest of it to work.
The pump gears are engaging but there doesn’t seem to be any pressures anywhere. Does any one have any suggestions?
I don’t seem to be able to find a lot of info or pictures of the complete hydraulic system, so I’m kinda in the dark. And, pulling the top off the rear end without some kind of a road map is rather daunting!
Thanks, Bill
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
Hello Bill, I'm not real sure but I believe the pump in your Super Major may be different from the one in my Power Major, others on here can tell you better than I can. Although my pump had a crack it would still lift the arms all the way up and keep them up. To remove the top is not real difficult, just heavy, need a lift or some strong guys to pick it up. It is very easy to remove the pump after top is removed. You may want to make sure all is ok in the valve chest before going after the pump. On the first page of this site, go to the bottom of page and there are repair manuals and parts list that may help. Good luck on getting her going.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
One of the first steps. And it was really clean already. The mystery to me is , if it worked when I parked what changed?
The only answer I can muster is WATER or (more probably ICE).
And to be honest I'm not even sure where, exactly, the pump is.
I removed the shifter fork from the bottom the other night but was afraid to go any further without some kind of a guide.
I can still drag logs but I'd like the 3 pt to work.
The only answer I can muster is WATER or (more probably ICE).
And to be honest I'm not even sure where, exactly, the pump is.
I removed the shifter fork from the bottom the other night but was afraid to go any further without some kind of a guide.
I can still drag logs but I'd like the 3 pt to work.
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
I'm still learning and do not know if your tractor has the same valve chest as a power major. You should go back and find a post on the unloading valve I did last year, the valve could be stuck open from rust due to the water, this post may help. The unloading valve is easy to get to, it is under the seat. Hopefully it is not the pump, I did find one with British Tractor Wreckers.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
Bill,
Your problem is simple to fix and is a common one on the Super Major hydraulic system, and on all Ford and Fordson tractors with your style of hydraulics. It has been discussed on here many times.
I would be 99.5% certain the unload valve is stuck. This is a common problem especially when condensation is in the oil.
The hydraulics on your tractor are nothing like the ones on Gerald's, you have to take the top off, there is no easy way. Lift it off carefully and do not put it face down on a bench as you may damage the control valve, lay it on its back.
Once the top is off, you will see the control valve which has a "trumpet" on its end, remove the plate from the front of this valve which retains the return spring.
You will now see a plug with a threaded hole in it. Find a bolt that threads in here and, with a piece of tube or even a socket and washers, make up a puller to extract this plug.
Once this is done, with a piece of aluminium or brass, or even a punch if you are careful, tap the valve out. Be careful not to burr or bend it. Clean the valve with metal polish, never wet and dry paper or emery paper. This will terminally damage it.
When the valve is free and slides into its position replace the "O" ring and refit the plug.
Reassemble and replace the lift.
You may want to replace the other seals and "O" rings under here at the same time but if the lift has been working OK it will not be necessary.
Your problem is simple to fix and is a common one on the Super Major hydraulic system, and on all Ford and Fordson tractors with your style of hydraulics. It has been discussed on here many times.
I would be 99.5% certain the unload valve is stuck. This is a common problem especially when condensation is in the oil.
The hydraulics on your tractor are nothing like the ones on Gerald's, you have to take the top off, there is no easy way. Lift it off carefully and do not put it face down on a bench as you may damage the control valve, lay it on its back.
Once the top is off, you will see the control valve which has a "trumpet" on its end, remove the plate from the front of this valve which retains the return spring.
You will now see a plug with a threaded hole in it. Find a bolt that threads in here and, with a piece of tube or even a socket and washers, make up a puller to extract this plug.
Once this is done, with a piece of aluminium or brass, or even a punch if you are careful, tap the valve out. Be careful not to burr or bend it. Clean the valve with metal polish, never wet and dry paper or emery paper. This will terminally damage it.
When the valve is free and slides into its position replace the "O" ring and refit the plug.
Reassemble and replace the lift.
You may want to replace the other seals and "O" rings under here at the same time but if the lift has been working OK it will not be necessary.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
Look back at my pictures on this post, the pump is in the bottom of the rear end. You can see the bottom of it, see the gear, after I had pulled the pto out. You only have to take pto out if you are taking pump out of the bottom, it is a task to put it back in from the bottom. Where you drained the oil out of rear end there is a plate with eight bolts, the pump is attached to it. If you can get a lift or help take top off and the pump is only fastened by three bolts to the pedestal, easy to remove and reinstall, oil will have to be drained or tractor parked facing down hill and most of oil will flow toward the front.Bill W wrote:One of the first steps. And it was really clean already. The mystery to me is , if it worked when I parked what changed?
The only answer I can muster is WATER or (more probably ICE).
And to be honest I'm not even sure where, exactly, the pump is.
I removed the shifter fork from the bottom the other night but was afraid to go any further without some kind of a guide.
I can still drag logs but I'd like the 3 pt to work.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
Gerald,
The pump will not come out of the bottom on a Super Major. The pressure pipe is bolted in and has to be removed from the top.
The unload valve on a Super is also a totally different animal and does a different job. Only the names are the same. Fords were a swine like that.
The pump will not come out of the bottom on a Super Major. The pressure pipe is bolted in and has to be removed from the top.
The unload valve on a Super is also a totally different animal and does a different job. Only the names are the same. Fords were a swine like that.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
Thanks Brian, didn't think they were the same but was not sure. ?, when I lifted the weight the other day, all seems ok, the psi maxed out at 1900 but psi did not drop back as it did the day before when reaching this pressure. If I shift control handle to neutral then psi drops, is there something I still need to be looking to repair? Thanks for all of your help.Brian wrote:Gerald,
The pump will not come out of the bottom on a Super Major. The pressure pipe is bolted in and has to be removed from the top.
The unload valve on a Super is also a totally different animal and does a different job. Only the names are the same. Fords were a swine like that.
Gerald
Gman: 1959 Power Major
THANK YOU Brian,
At last some insight. That can be tomorrows project. Any idea of the weight of that top?
I want to be sure not to collapse anything (like my barn roof or something else kind of important).
And are the "O" rings all pretty standard sizes? That is, something I can find at NAPA or similar stores?
At last some insight. That can be tomorrows project. Any idea of the weight of that top?
I want to be sure not to collapse anything (like my barn roof or something else kind of important).
And are the "O" rings all pretty standard sizes? That is, something I can find at NAPA or similar stores?
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
Top weighs about 3/4cwt, around 90 lbs. Two men or a man and boy can lift it off with a bar bolted to the seat bolts.
"O" rings are not really a standard ring on the unload valve, I would try your NH dealer for that one. It is the same on all the '000nd series so don't let them blind you with: "never seen one".
The tractor will work OK without a ring on the unload valve and some had a "piston ring" type one.
"O" rings are not really a standard ring on the unload valve, I would try your NH dealer for that one. It is the same on all the '000nd series so don't let them blind you with: "never seen one".
The tractor will work OK without a ring on the unload valve and some had a "piston ring" type one.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
I feel so good knowing what might be wrong I could probably pick it off with one hand tied.........Yeah, who am I kidding?? But at around a hundred lbs my beam in the barn is safe!! And my 2 ton come a long shouldn't even struggle.
I can't wait till tomorrow AM. Can you tell I'm excited???
I can't wait till tomorrow AM. Can you tell I'm excited???
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
Well, I took the top off and cleaned everything up. It was already pretty clean but I did it again. No help. I.m pretty sure my pump has taken a vacation.
On the case there is also the top mounted valve with feed and return hoses for attachments.
When I activate the valve in either direction there is no pressure in either of the lines. SO, how difficult is pump removal AND how rare are they??
On the case there is also the top mounted valve with feed and return hoses for attachments.
When I activate the valve in either direction there is no pressure in either of the lines. SO, how difficult is pump removal AND how rare are they??
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
Hi Bill, if you look back at page one of this post there is a picture by Foxen showing the pump in the rear end, I believe a Super Major. Removing is no problem if you are able to lift top off. You might want to look at the repair manuals on this site and go through the diagnostics of the hydraulic problems, this may help you determine for sure if it is your pump.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
Put your thumb over the pressure pipe and operate the starter. That will show you if you have some pressure.
Was the unload valve free and sliding easily in the bore?
Stipid question: You have got the PTO in gear haven't you?
Was the unload valve free and sliding easily in the bore?
Stipid question: You have got the PTO in gear haven't you?
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
Brian, Yes, the PTO is in gear. Valve was free and so was the lift piston but I cleaned them anyway. I actually removed the body from the top and took it all apart to clean it. When I lifted the valve body some of the oil in it ran out. It looked like the OLD oil (watery). That makes me believe that nothing has gone thru the valve in a while.
Tomorrow will be the day to check pressures 'cause the afternoon is kinda full.
Thanks for all the advice. I'll get back.
Tomorrow will be the day to check pressures 'cause the afternoon is kinda full.
Thanks for all the advice. I'll get back.
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
If the pump needs to come out, do I remove the PTO shaft and pull it from the bottom?
Or will it come thru the top? Since I'll have the cover off anyway.
I can probably figure it out once the oil is out (again) and I can see it better.
Or will it come thru the top? Since I'll have the cover off anyway.
I can probably figure it out once the oil is out (again) and I can see it better.
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!
Hi Bill, check Brian's reply above, pump must come out of top. Do not have to remove pto. On my Power Major you have the option of removing out of the top or bottom. I took the pump out of the parts Major I bought through the top, nothing to it, putting it back in my Power Major through the bottom was a task. With cover off and oil out of your way you will see pump with no problem, look back on this post and there is a picture of what you will see with top off and oil out.Bill W wrote:If the pump needs to come out, do I remove the PTO shaft and pull it from the bottom?
Or will it come thru the top? Since I'll have the cover off anyway.
I can probably figure it out once the oil is out (again) and I can see it better.
Gman: 1959 Power Major
Done, Done and Done!!!!!
When I got all the oil out and could see the bottom I found a gear laying in the bottom of the case. I was pretty sure it didn't start there.....As I looked around I also found a nut and a locking washer.
I think, that when I put it in gear last spring, that there was still ice in the bottom of the reservoir. A block of it. Since the gear couldn't turn the shaft had enough torque to shear the woodruff key and unscrew the nut. The gear fell down and the pump didn't go round!!!!! Went to town and got the key (1/8 by 5/8) put everything back together and VOILA!!! It works again. I'm hoping it will stay that way for a long time. One good thing.......if I ever have to do it again I'll be a lot quicker 'cause I know just what to do.
Thanks for all the help and advice. Without it I probably wouldn't have found the problem so quickly.
Also took some pictures of the process. I can post them if you'd like
Bill
When I got all the oil out and could see the bottom I found a gear laying in the bottom of the case. I was pretty sure it didn't start there.....As I looked around I also found a nut and a locking washer.
I think, that when I put it in gear last spring, that there was still ice in the bottom of the reservoir. A block of it. Since the gear couldn't turn the shaft had enough torque to shear the woodruff key and unscrew the nut. The gear fell down and the pump didn't go round!!!!! Went to town and got the key (1/8 by 5/8) put everything back together and VOILA!!! It works again. I'm hoping it will stay that way for a long time. One good thing.......if I ever have to do it again I'll be a lot quicker 'cause I know just what to do.
Thanks for all the help and advice. Without it I probably wouldn't have found the problem so quickly.
Also took some pictures of the process. I can post them if you'd like
Bill
Works now..... Darn it!!!!!! A little perseverance goes a long way!