As some of you know, ive started another project. Its a 58 major diesel, and its engine is seized. Got the axel and sump off earlier, and it doesnt look too bad from underneath (conrod bearings, crankshaft etc).
I need to get the pistons out but they will not budge. The block and crank are still in the tractor as i was hoping not to touch them. Are there any ways to get them out that have worked? I am going to put new liners and pistons etc in it.
Any advice greatly appreciated!!!
Seized pistons, does coke really work?
Hi Nick
I have heard about using coke to unseize a motor. it may depend how stuck it is if it works or not. I tried it cleaning a brass fuel tap once and copper pennys and that worked. I have never tried it on steel and aluminium though.
To be honest I think if youve tried diesel and other things that are in the other post you had on here and nothing worked. They are so stuck coke wont do it either as the two different metals are probably chemically welded now.
I guess you are going to have to remove the motor and try to push the whole lot out through the top of the block. I mensioned what I did in the other post i know it is brutal but i saved a block and rods for spare parts.
I know this is not the answer that you want but sometimes there is no easy way. It is very hard to lay under a motor and work on it beating the living daylights out of it above your head when its seized that bad.
yes I know its extra work but you are not fighting gravity all the time and you can position it where you want for an easy life to work on it
.
while it is all apart you can change all of the crank seals and make sure everything is clean and in good condition.
In Canada they call what you are trying to do an inframe overhaul but it is usually done on currently running motors.
you roll the new bearings in put the liners and pistons in then shove it all back. I have seen this done in a few shops then 2 weeks later the rear and front crank seal starts leaking. The other thing that can happen is the clutch wares out soon after as well.
Then bingo the guy is ripping the motor out and doing half the work again and he could of found out the clutch was going bad then to .
With the bad reputation of the major crank seals and how long the tractor has sat this extra work may pay off for ya now. Also you could spend weeks strugling to get it apart with it in situ. you could then find the block is corroded on the seal rings for the liners and it is junk then you will be sick at all the time you wasted struggling
.
I guess I can only give you an honest answer from what ive found in 22 years doing these jobs. so good luck with what you decide and I hope she turns out as good as your first one.
Regards Robert
I have heard about using coke to unseize a motor. it may depend how stuck it is if it works or not. I tried it cleaning a brass fuel tap once and copper pennys and that worked. I have never tried it on steel and aluminium though.
To be honest I think if youve tried diesel and other things that are in the other post you had on here and nothing worked. They are so stuck coke wont do it either as the two different metals are probably chemically welded now.
I guess you are going to have to remove the motor and try to push the whole lot out through the top of the block. I mensioned what I did in the other post i know it is brutal but i saved a block and rods for spare parts.
I know this is not the answer that you want but sometimes there is no easy way. It is very hard to lay under a motor and work on it beating the living daylights out of it above your head when its seized that bad.
yes I know its extra work but you are not fighting gravity all the time and you can position it where you want for an easy life to work on it
. while it is all apart you can change all of the crank seals and make sure everything is clean and in good condition.
In Canada they call what you are trying to do an inframe overhaul but it is usually done on currently running motors.
you roll the new bearings in put the liners and pistons in then shove it all back. I have seen this done in a few shops then 2 weeks later the rear and front crank seal starts leaking. The other thing that can happen is the clutch wares out soon after as well.
Then bingo the guy is ripping the motor out and doing half the work again and he could of found out the clutch was going bad then to .
With the bad reputation of the major crank seals and how long the tractor has sat this extra work may pay off for ya now. Also you could spend weeks strugling to get it apart with it in situ. you could then find the block is corroded on the seal rings for the liners and it is junk then you will be sick at all the time you wasted struggling
.I guess I can only give you an honest answer from what ive found in 22 years doing these jobs. so good luck with what you decide and I hope she turns out as good as your first one.
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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Kiwi Kev
- Site Governance Team & Expert Team
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Nick
I totally agree with super6954
I have also unstuck a seized block, by "massaging" a block of wood on top of the pistons, turning the block over and then massaging the block of wood on the conrod.
I know how much force I had to use, but they came free and with a quick hone, and new rings, that engine is now in my tractor working for it's living.
Good luck
Kiwi Kev
when I say massaging a block of wood, the wood was held on the piston, and then hit with a hammer. I did go through about 3 blocks of wood, but it worked.
I totally agree with super6954
I have also unstuck a seized block, by "massaging" a block of wood on top of the pistons, turning the block over and then massaging the block of wood on the conrod.
I know how much force I had to use, but they came free and with a quick hone, and new rings, that engine is now in my tractor working for it's living.
Good luck
Kiwi Kev
when I say massaging a block of wood, the wood was held on the piston, and then hit with a hammer. I did go through about 3 blocks of wood, but it worked.
"Classic Contracting"
66 Ford 5000 6X (semi retirement)
International 784 4WD
& looking at another tractor!
66 Ford 5000 6X (semi retirement)
International 784 4WD
& looking at another tractor!
Hi Nick
I think you mean the timing gear cover .
I would not worry to much about doing it. I would get your self an I&T workshop Manual or im not sure if it is in the wiki or somewhere here . if you get the manual you will have most of the info you will ever need in it.
All the gears are marked for timing or they should be. it is just a matter of cleaning all the gears to find the marks. Then lineing up marks on re assembley. if you dont alter the pump timing on the drive coupling it is real easy.
I do this every time I re build a major motor as I always do them from a bare block.
Good luck and I think you are making a wise choice taking her out and doing it right.
Regards Robert
I think you mean the timing gear cover
. I would not worry to much about doing it. I would get your self an I&T workshop Manual or im not sure if it is in the wiki or somewhere here . if you get the manual you will have most of the info you will ever need in it.
All the gears are marked for timing or they should be. it is just a matter of cleaning all the gears to find the marks. Then lineing up marks on re assembley. if you dont alter the pump timing on the drive coupling it is real easy.
I do this every time I re build a major motor as I always do them from a bare block.
Good luck and I think you are making a wise choice taking her out and doing it right.
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
yes super6954, thats what i meant 
well it doesnt sound too bad to do then, i will just mark everything up and write it down so i dont forget!
i have one more ace up my sleeve - kano kroil. if that doesnt budge them then its coming off!
you mentioned in your previous post about how you got your pistons out, what did you do mate?
well it doesnt sound too bad to do then, i will just mark everything up and write it down so i dont forget!i have one more ace up my sleeve - kano kroil. if that doesnt budge them then its coming off!
you mentioned in your previous post about how you got your pistons out, what did you do mate?
No Problem on the wrong name of the timing cover I knew what you ment.
On the subject of what I did if you go back a page in the discussions to your post on your new project it is still there.
If you have any problems just ask and ill explaine and help you out. its easyer than typing it all again.
all the gears should have lines marked on them at a tooth or gap in between teeth. there should be 4 marks . 1 on the crank gear 1 on the large cam gear 1 on the gear behind that and 1 on the fuel pump drive gear. it depends where the motor is stopped if you can see them all as the pump one will disapear under other gears when they turn. in which case you cant see it. They should all line up with no 1 cylinder at top dead on compression stroke.
The gears are keyed on the shaft so they cant go back in the wrong place on the shaft and if its all lined with the marks it cant be wrong. But if you are real woried mark it yourself with a punch but use factory marks to set pump timing as this needs to be done on no 1 coming up on compression and your marks wont be close .
The other thing I found once was that when I removed a flywheel it was not peged with the dowels so it would only fit on one way and not be 180 degrees out on re assenbley (the dowels fitted the same both ways one should be larger so that it only fits on properly in one location) I would check this or mark the flywheel by one of the dowel pins and the end of the pin to give a reference just in case. I have definatly only found it once but it caused problems later. The timing numbers on the flywheel didnt match no 1 cylinder for pump timing. so I always check now before removing them to make sure sods law says if i dont tell you you will have one like it .
I would seriously get a workshop manual that covers all the majors or find the info on here if its in the wiki. you will spend a few pounds on the book but the info in it will be worth millions to you.
It will save time with having to wait on us trying to help and figure it out to give the right help you need.
you will have to remove the front mounting plate to get the crank out. As the crank nose gear is an interference fit and removing it is not a good idea.
The gear wont fit through the hole in the front plate. some of those bolts in that plate on certain motors have to go back in the right place and be torqued up to certain FTlbs and in a set pattern.
The book will tell you all this stuff right there .even with the number I have done i still read the book to make sure it is going back right with all the different specs. I will probably be doing 4 rebuilds this winter alone .
Regards Robert
On the subject of what I did if you go back a page in the discussions to your post on your new project it is still there.
If you have any problems just ask and ill explaine and help you out. its easyer than typing it all again.
all the gears should have lines marked on them at a tooth or gap in between teeth. there should be 4 marks . 1 on the crank gear 1 on the large cam gear 1 on the gear behind that and 1 on the fuel pump drive gear. it depends where the motor is stopped if you can see them all as the pump one will disapear under other gears when they turn. in which case you cant see it. They should all line up with no 1 cylinder at top dead on compression stroke.
The gears are keyed on the shaft so they cant go back in the wrong place on the shaft and if its all lined with the marks it cant be wrong. But if you are real woried mark it yourself with a punch but use factory marks to set pump timing as this needs to be done on no 1 coming up on compression and your marks wont be close .
The other thing I found once was that when I removed a flywheel it was not peged with the dowels so it would only fit on one way and not be 180 degrees out on re assenbley (the dowels fitted the same both ways one should be larger so that it only fits on properly in one location) I would check this or mark the flywheel by one of the dowel pins and the end of the pin to give a reference just in case. I have definatly only found it once but it caused problems later. The timing numbers on the flywheel didnt match no 1 cylinder for pump timing. so I always check now before removing them to make sure sods law says if i dont tell you you will have one like it
. I would seriously get a workshop manual that covers all the majors or find the info on here if its in the wiki. you will spend a few pounds on the book but the info in it will be worth millions to you.
It will save time with having to wait on us trying to help and figure it out to give the right help you need.
you will have to remove the front mounting plate to get the crank out. As the crank nose gear is an interference fit and removing it is not a good idea.
The gear wont fit through the hole in the front plate. some of those bolts in that plate on certain motors have to go back in the right place and be torqued up to certain FTlbs and in a set pattern.
The book will tell you all this stuff right there .even with the number I have done i still read the book to make sure it is going back right with all the different specs. I will probably be doing 4 rebuilds this winter alone
. Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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JC
- Site Governance Team & Expert Team
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I wouldn't recommend punching your own timing marks, just clean it up good and find the original ones.
I bought a Case tractor last spring. (Don't worry, just for resale to support my Fordson habit
) Sometime in its past, someone had made lots of their own timing marks. The guy that I bought it from had taken the injector pump off to have it rebuilt and never could get it to run again, because he couldn't time it. It took me several hours, and a shop manual with some really good pictures, to get it running again.
I bought a Case tractor last spring. (Don't worry, just for resale to support my Fordson habit
) Sometime in its past, someone had made lots of their own timing marks. The guy that I bought it from had taken the injector pump off to have it rebuilt and never could get it to run again, because he couldn't time it. It took me several hours, and a shop manual with some really good pictures, to get it running again.I was only sugesting this as he is pulling a seized motor and may not be able to find one or 2 of the marks easily as there hidden.JC wrote:I wouldn't recommend punching your own timing marks, just clean it up good and find the original ones.
I bought a Case tractor last spring. (Don't worry, just for resale to support my Fordson habit
if it is not all maked as it should be Ie a mark is wrong or missing he has his marks to line up.
he could Then assemble the motor with the factory lines when he finds then all which should be right. then turn it to his marks and confirm it again if its not right something was out before the re build .
We need to remember Nicks never been this far in a motor before and it was only sugested as a back up plan of sorts. if he pulls a gear and the factory mark is not there for some stupid reason hes going to maybe panic a bit .
I have mensioned that he has to set up timing and so on with right factory marks and procedure on re assenbley and if he used a centre punch or even just scratched AtoA Bto B on touching gears It should be a different mark from the factory lines and not confuse things.
I hope this makes some sense of why i suggested it
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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Supermanuel
- True Blue
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I have also had an engine with stuck pistons, 30 years in rain and snow. In the principle crankshaft out The pistons can be driven downwards slightly with a piece of wood and hammer, but not beyond the main bearings. Then it may be possible to drive them upwards out.
If the pistons are driven with iron bar, it means new pistons. Connecting rod cannot be used to push them out.
Coke contains phosphoric acid, so more powerfull might be to use the acid diluted according to instructions.
I think, if you take the engine out and inspect all parts as per workshop manual you can still save a lot work. There hardly is only one thing to repair and much dirt.
If the pistons are driven with iron bar, it means new pistons. Connecting rod cannot be used to push them out.
Coke contains phosphoric acid, so more powerfull might be to use the acid diluted according to instructions.
I think, if you take the engine out and inspect all parts as per workshop manual you can still save a lot work. There hardly is only one thing to repair and much dirt.
New Performance Super Major Manuel 08D970466
Just thinking here: I have seen it recommended that a diesel soaked rag or diesel burnt on top of a siezed piston will free it quickly. I have never tried it but wonder if a propane torch might do the job.
Heat the piston and allow to cool before applying the wood and hammer.
One of the best kits I have bought is a Machine Mart propane gun kit with a fairly wide range of nozzles. Wonderful tool for freeing off rusted plough parts, siezed nuts and bearings.
I would be against marking gears etc. as they should all be done, even if they have been replaced. All new gears were marked at the factory. The only exception was trhe pump driven gear opn a Dexta.
Check "Henrietta Overhaul" on the Wiki for pictures of the gear marking.
Heat the piston and allow to cool before applying the wood and hammer.
One of the best kits I have bought is a Machine Mart propane gun kit with a fairly wide range of nozzles. Wonderful tool for freeing off rusted plough parts, siezed nuts and bearings.
I would be against marking gears etc. as they should all be done, even if they have been replaced. All new gears were marked at the factory. The only exception was trhe pump driven gear opn a Dexta.
Check "Henrietta Overhaul" on the Wiki for pictures of the gear marking.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
earlier i tried filling the bore up about an inch with diesel, and put a diesel soaked rag in it lit, it got it warmish, but not hot enough to get anything to move.
i may try a propane torch, got one with a big cannister on it.
and ive been thinking, if ive got to take the engine out, i may cut my losses and get an engine that runs and stick that in.
ive come to the conclusion that i dont like seized things
i may try a propane torch, got one with a big cannister on it.
and ive been thinking, if ive got to take the engine out, i may cut my losses and get an engine that runs and stick that in.
ive come to the conclusion that i dont like seized things
Hi Nick
I was hoping you would carry on with that motor you have as you did so well with the last one for a first go . I feel that now you should of maybe upped the stakes and pushed the learning curve futher . In truth though the choice is always yours and we wont think less of you for quiting if you go that route .
maybe you could find one cheap that is running and holding water in the block good but needs a re build. It would then be easy to rebuild and you know what you have got. sometimes running and really un known can throw suprises as well.
This tractor game can be full of horrible suprises. sometimes some of us have found this the hard way over the years too. even with experience we can miss judge things .
Regards Robert
I was hoping you would carry on with that motor you have as you did so well with the last one for a first go
. I feel that now you should of maybe upped the stakes and pushed the learning curve futher . In truth though the choice is always yours and we wont think less of you for quiting if you go that route . maybe you could find one cheap that is running and holding water in the block good but needs a re build. It would then be easy to rebuild and you know what you have got. sometimes running and really un known can throw suprises as well.
This tractor game can be full of horrible suprises. sometimes some of us have found this the hard way over the years too. even with experience we can miss judge things
.Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
There shoukd be a complete downloadable one on the site. Mike has it on a computer link in his garage! 
I know he has been busy at work but he may answer himself. Rogert said he had a problem with it. I must admit I use my paper version that I had in my service van, that is getting rather tatty now but it is over 40 years old.
I know he has been busy at work but he may answer himself. Rogert said he had a problem with it. I must admit I use my paper version that I had in my service van, that is getting rather tatty now but it is over 40 years old.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
Ok good man Thats The spirit .
from my email conversation with Brian today he is telling me he rates the I&T as junk. He says all the info from Manuals is on here some where. I did not find it last night or what i wanted to know anyway . if he can tell us where to find it that is all genuine horses mouth info. Not horses ar$# as appears from the I&T .
you can sometimes pick up genuine fordson ones on ebay. I dont know if they all cover the whole range. maybe early ones only cover each tractor and later covers all 3 models. I hope Brian can tell us this.
I am wanting the genuine book in my hand now as I like to have original books for my tractor collection that I own . A friend of mine got one from an online company for his leyland 2100.
they could do fordson as well. If you can down load it here free and it is good then why not .
Regards Robert
.from my email conversation with Brian today he is telling me he rates the I&T as junk. He says all the info from Manuals is on here some where. I did not find it last night or what i wanted to know anyway . if he can tell us where to find it that is all genuine horses mouth info. Not horses ar$# as appears from the I&T
.you can sometimes pick up genuine fordson ones on ebay. I dont know if they all cover the whole range. maybe early ones only cover each tractor and later covers all 3 models. I hope Brian can tell us this.
I am wanting the genuine book in my hand now as I like to have original books for my tractor collection that I own . A friend of mine got one from an online company for his leyland 2100.
they could do fordson as well. If you can down load it here free and it is good then why not
.Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.
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JC
- Site Governance Team & Expert Team
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There are some original manuals on eBay, but they're not cheap. If you find one that is cheap, it's probably a copy, so read the description carefully. If you just need one to fix your Major and don't want it for your collection, I guess that a copy would work fine.
Here's where to find the ones on this site
http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/manua ... _guide.htm
Here's where to find the ones on this site
http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/manua ... _guide.htm
Those are repair guides not manuals. They are a good guide to repairs as they were used to set warranty rates. However there were short cuts which you gained with experience. These give limited information.
I was pretty sure we had the full manual on Mike's server but it may be down at the moment.
As far as the manual is concerned it is two books, one on the Maqjor from 1952 and then a suppliment for Power and Super Majors. The suppliments were sent out by Ford when changes took place and you need to be sure you have all the latest ones. Dates are on most pages.
You read them together so you need the two.
I was pretty sure we had the full manual on Mike's server but it may be down at the moment.
As far as the manual is concerned it is two books, one on the Maqjor from 1952 and then a suppliment for Power and Super Majors. The suppliments were sent out by Ford when changes took place and you need to be sure you have all the latest ones. Dates are on most pages.
You read them together so you need the two.
Fordson Tractor Pages, now officially linked to: Fordson Tractor Club of Australia, Ford and Fordson Association and Blue Force.
Brian
Brian
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Mike Kuscher
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Hello All,
I do still exist, just very busy with work at the moment.
I have just checked, remotely from my desk at work.
The server is up and running without problems, so should be accessible to all (please let me know if not).
I have looked at what Oscar loaded there for the Major.
There is the Repair Manual, the Operator Guide and the Parts List.
Now you will have to excuse me, as of 2 hours ago, I now have to get ready to go to Switzerland in a few days.
Mike
I do still exist, just very busy with work at the moment.
I have just checked, remotely from my desk at work.
The server is up and running without problems, so should be accessible to all (please let me know if not).
I have looked at what Oscar loaded there for the Major.
There is the Repair Manual, the Operator Guide and the Parts List.
Now you will have to excuse me, as of 2 hours ago, I now have to get ready to go to Switzerland in a few days.
Mike
Success at last! Even though it took me 3 hours to do it, ive managed to get the pistons out. They were absolutely solid, i used a composite block to hit them down and a different block to hit them out.
The diesel id put down the bores hadnt even penetrated a bit through the rust!
Just got to pull the liners out now
The diesel id put down the bores hadnt even penetrated a bit through the rust!
Just got to pull the liners out now