Re-engine FMD SMD

[exp500]

Greetings all, I thought a post with engine fitment issues and workarounds would be helpful to all of us that cannot find reasonably priced blocks for rebuild.
I have seen mentioned adapter plates, even that some have them in reserve in the back shop.
My main question is Does anyone have a blueprint or dimensions such as locating pins to crankshaft centerline for local fabrication of such adapters?
Many of us have the ability to machine them, myself, I am wary of being a few thousandths off using a destroyed engine as a master.
All comments or thoughts welcome. Thanks in advance. JB.
A little more thought gave me more ideas i still need info for-
Most engine bellhousings are built to a certain specification, for instance SAE 4. I even have several such prints archived somewhere in this electronic machine, However I don't know the spec for the FMD/PMD/SMD. Most likely I could find it if I knew what to request. DIN? Thanks Again.

[exp500]

I'm back with more questions and some answers. Firstly some un verified info.
SAE 1- ID= 20.125 in. Bolt Circle 20.875 in. 12 holes . 14 in clutch.
SAE 2- id 17.625 in BC 18.375 in. 12 holes 11.5 in clutch.
SAE 3 - 16.125 id BC 16.875 in 12 holes 11.5 in clutch.
Some motors are multiple pattern or avail in more than one pattern. For instance , Cummins 4B 3.3 is SAE 3 or 4. Or Mercedes om 352 avail in 2 models, one fits Fordson Bellhousing, one doesn't. No specs on either one yet, Although I suspect SAE3 is one option.

[brownsmule]

Hello Fellow Fordson Owners: Yes, I do like to see them original. Working or Showroom condition. What is sad is to see a perfectly good Fordson left to the elements or scrapper for lack of an engine. Same with old car's & trucks. Some folk put down one that has been re-powered by a modern engine. I would rather see them working or shown with re-power than be destroyed. Granted some need to be parted out to keep other units useable. I have a lead on two near me that are abandoned out in the woods, most likely due to engine failure by neglect. Here in the USA I have never seen a re-powered major. It is my hope that you find an engine that would be a suitable re-power without too much money and skills to install.
brownsmule in NC

[Kim]

Hello exp 500. The SAE 1-2-3 data you posted is GOLD as far as I'm concerned; thank you for putting it up here. Can you tell me where this data came from as I've not seen it in my cruises on the internet--- not looking in the right place I guess. Does anyone know if there is a casting code of some kind on the housings to indicate the SAE classification?

[brownsmule]

Hello again Fordson Owners.... checked out that lead on Fordson Major's nearby; turned out to be only one. twas sittin in the yard all pretty with a bad engine. cracked beyond repair due to insufficient anti-freeze. It is a 1958 model and was sold but not yet fully paid for nor picked up. I'll have to keep my eye's peeled to see if the deal falls apart. As far as SAE bell housing info I just googled it and found complete information on all aspects of application. Would be real fine if someone had a supply source for the E1A diesel; running or rebuildable.

[exp500]

Thank You for the kind words, as Red Green Says" We're all in this together" .
Brownsmule, I agree, in a perfect world we would all be able to ship an engine from europe for a few dollar's, peso's, or euro's. Here in North America Fordson diesel blocks seem to be golden. I still think they are hard to beat for economy and cold starting, Just wish anti freeze was used in them more, at least changed more often. I've seen thirty or so cracked blocks or o ring grooves totally gone from corrosion. Anyway I'm nearly ranting. How many tractors built today will even be repairable in 50 or 60 years? Lets try to keep them going as long as possible!
Kim, there may be casting codes on blocks/ bellhousings, but I am not aware of any that specify size. That data posted was pieced, again un verified. Those of you with hi speed connections and faster typing skills than mine may locate and link SAE specs . Regards,JB.

[Supermanuel]

The cast iron sump of Fordson engine is a vital part of the tractor. In any other solutions a strong subframe must be built to support the tractor. Otherwise it will brake between bell housing and engine.

[JC]

I have a Power Major with no engine and I've seen several Cummins 6BT 5.9's for sale lately. I think that would make an excellent swap.
A Major bellhousing looks close to an SAE no. 2, but I don't know how close.

[exp500]

Fordson Lovers, I'm back with more questions and few answers.
Brownsmule, could you post a link to the SAE data? I haven't found much
comprehensive data, especially regarding manufacturers' flywheel housing
bolt patterns. Some like a small block chevy and ford are very
complete, others such as the FMD are non-existant or are speculation or
rumors. May just be a problem of me not asking the question correctly in
searching for the Fordson data. What would be the most useful would be
the alignment pin locations vs the crank centerline, that way I could
lay out both sides of the adapter plate.
Supermanuel, thanks for the warning on the Sump. I intend to extend the
yoke back to the flywheel housing lower bolt circle and weld attaching
structure to the frame rails as others on the board here have done.
JC, Several friends of mine have been running 6bt motors in 4x4 trucks
for years, all have a pile of transmissions and transfer cases that have
been destroyed, and not by abuse. That is why I mentioned the 4B motor,
At 60- 140 horsepower it will do all I need. Additionally I won't have
the balance, length or turning circle changes to worry about. And yes I
agree the FMD appears to be a modified SAE#2 flywheel housing, most of
the upper bolts line up and crank C/L appears correct.
Mainly my findings have been each MFG. has a few different bolt
patterns, Ford having the most I think. SAE housings were industrial
mainly, some were marine.On this site someone mentioned the 4236 and
4248 Perkins and the 2700 series 4 and 6 cyl Ford diesels as fitting the
FMD, I have only found the 4236 Perkins as SAE3. I followed hints to
Marshalls Industrial in the UK. Were they involved in
County/Roadless/EBRO flywheel housing adapters? They are making VW adapters now.
As I said before, All info is helpful, something as simple as search
term for a Fordson flywheel housing bolt pattern may prove to be the
key.Thanks for the input!

[brownsmule]

For SAE Flywheel and SAE Engine Flywheel Housing dimensions try:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/bellhousing.asp

Let me know if this works for you and if not; I have printed the info and will be more than happy to mail a copy to you.

As you realize, the SAE pattern is a perfect circle. The bottom half of the FMD and FSM is not a perfect circle. Therein lies the difficulty. I would think that first objective would be to determine what the TOP half is equal to a SAE pattern and proceed from there. Currently I have the oil pan (sump) and cylinder head off my FSM for an inframe overhaul. Members don't fuss cause this is a Loader Tractor. If not I would have pulled the engine to do it 100%. I will be glad to make a template of the lower half on a piece of heavy paper if that will help. I noticed that Perkins has several engines including new ones that would be great candidates in the correct power range and physical size. I'm not that much of a mechanic, best described as a part's changer to accomplish a project such as this. If you could build on the experience of others and publish your findings, maybe some the the Fordson's out there could be re-powered and put back to work. Best Wishes on your endeavor. Brownsmule in NC USA

[exp500]

Brownsmule, Thanks for the link! It had more info than previous single finds of mine. Also a mans mall store such as that are fun to browse for future projects.Thanks for the offer for a template, I am farther than that at present- I have several removed cracked engines,and sumps, all stripped with one having cut the bell off with an abrasive saw. It's lighter to position over the plate, plus I can drill thru from engine side after bolting the housing to the upper circle for alignment pins. surprising but it did not distort after cutting. As I said in my first post, I am hesitant to go ahead and drill the adapter plate without referencing from more than center. I few thousandths off and pilot bearing or transmission bearing problems for sure. I suppose as it is sort of proof of concept I could go ahead and wait and see if any problems develop- it would free up shop space for sure. I really hoped someone would chime in with a print for a 2700 series Ford, that would raise my comfort level enough to start drilling. I just hate having to move holes in .750 plate, even if only a few thousandths, not to mention weld hole closed, grind flat check for warp, start over. Easier just to have the programming right from the beginning. I'll keep everyone updated as things progress. I even have a few modifications in the planning stages that should interest others, such as power steering and front wheel assist. One thing at a time for now. Regards, JB.

[exp500]

I'm Back with a few more questions and more info to share. I finally split my basket case SMD, to get more measurements. All was going well until I got to the clutch part. It was then I realized one more reason Not to start with a Super for a conversion project. Without using a very thick adapter plate and crankshaft spacer it just cant be done (the way I was planning, SAE 3 engine to the SMD trans). It would work in a FMD though, which is where most of my idea originated. Just have to be careful in clutch plate selection. Unless of course someone knows of a dual clutch assembly that matches the SMD configuration, is 12'' in diameter and can handle say 75- 90 horsepower and lastly is affordable. I found a few in the $1200.00 range. So for the Super I'm looking for a 2700 series 4 cyl. Or enough parts to complete the basket case motor and stay original. I finally have a good block! My fourth Fordson, first good block, not counting all the parts piles that had partial engines. And now all those parts are long gone. Looking for a complete head and pushrods, and sump and oil pump pickup for a SMD.
On the conversion /modification subject the term to search for is ISO 7648 flywheel housing. It will also link you to every other spec necessary, even if you want to shaft drive that Doe like contraption behind you.
While I had the fuel tank off I trial fitted a Char-Lynn steering amplifier. Plenty of room for unit and hard tubing, probably fit using hoses. All that must be done is remove pedestal, fit steel plate to lower to hold shims in, bored for steering shaft to fit thru, add Dom tube above that with bearing, cap with L angle for power unit mount, power unit, another L more DOM tube with bearings, then use the factory stuff to trim it back to original look and add a pump . Power steering. Thanks for all your help on this. I'll keep you updated.