petrol / kero

[shergar]

hello all

made a start on the petrol/kero major , here are a few pics and questions

022 by shergar3, on Flickr
auxiliary gear chewed up

013 by shergar3, on Flickr
pump gear

018 by shergar3, on Flickr
crank gear a little chewed the rest of the timing gears look ok ,what would cause this damage and could i replace with a gear from a diesel ?

012 by shergar3, on Flickr

015 by shergar3, on Flickr
oil pump gears pitted , i have a spare from a later major with the integrated pressure relief could i use the internal gears?

051 by shergar3, on Flickr
someone has been here before , a repair to the governor , also it has only four balls my manual says it should have five?

053 by shergar3, on Flickr
one ball badly pitted

039 by shergar3, on Flickr
also no timing mark on bottom pulley

002 by shergar3, on Flickr
under the rocker cover it's a bit of a mess what would cause this? but she has been stood best part of thirty years.

024 by shergar3, on Flickr
distributor cap does not fit right could it be the wrong one?

any advice would be gratefully received

thanks Wayne

[Brian]

Wayne, I have never in all my years seen timing gears like that!

You can use parts off a Diesel up to 1957 and some are the same later, but the later oil pump and auxiliary shaft will not be. Later tractors did not have the slots in the oil pump drive gear to drive the distributor and auxiliary drive shaft and pump drive gear are matched.

You only seem to have four positions for balls in your governor, earlier or later type? Mine, 1952, has five. You will need to replace the damaged one.

You cannot find a mark on your front pulley because there never was one. You have the later narrow pulley for an engine with the timing marks on the flywheel not the front pulley. Your engine should have a wide fan belt and wide pulley.

Oil pump gears changed so the later pump gears may not fit, you would also need to change them as a matched pair.

Sludge is normal! These engines would not have used detergent oils that hold the carbon in suspension. The particles deposit out everywhere. That is why the early models had a plate in the bottom of the sump to clean the intake filter on the oil pump.

On the inside of the cap is a number. Post that and we will see if it is the right one.

[shergar]

hello brian

sorry my eyes must be getting bad , have found the timing notch on the bottom pulley and she is on wide belt.

008 by shergar3, on Flickr

009 by shergar3, on Flickr
distributor cap no 418859
also on the governor the positions where the ball go look a bit gnarled over is this normal ?

007 by shergar3, on Flickr

006 by shergar3, on Flickr
the governor fingers look worn or is this normal .
what is the best way to clean under the rocker cover , thinking of removing the head to clean then i can then check the pistons and liners.
hoping the oil pump internal gears fit from that other pump how go i go about checking tolerances ?

thanks wayne

[shergar]

Wayne, I have never in all my years seen timing gears like that!

back on the subject of timing gears took another look at the other gears and the camshaft to crank gear is showing signs of wear , if you under stand what i mean the wear is at four equal points on the gear say 12 o'clock 3 6 9 o'clock the other gears look OK , a bit puzzled of why they are worn like this?

014 by shergar3, on Flickr
the crank gear is toast but does this gear look ok to use or should i replace?
wayne

[Dandy Dave]

The gears wear this way because of the action of spring tension from the valve springs. Replacement is best. Try to turn a cam without the crank installed and you will feel the pressure as it changes. Dandy Dave!

[shergar]

hello dave

thats the thing i can't turn the cam by hand there must be something tight somewhere ? any way the heads coming off soon then removing the rest of the engine for further investigation , she is looking a bit of a mess up to now hope she is not completely ruined

wayne

[Dandy Dave]

Most likely the valves are stuck. Be sure the valves are free before you attempt to move the cam. You will need a wrench or lever of sorts to turn it as the valve spring tension is quite strong with the head on. Dandy Dave!

[shergar]

the valves are OK , turned over with starting handle with the rocker off all valves go up and down OK,

Wayne

[shergar]

hello

have now removed the cylinder head looks ok but very carbon-y just a bit concerned about the colour of some of the valves , also should i get the head skimmed it says nothing about it in the owners manual ?
the cam turns fine now the head is off , i see what you mean now dave about how strong the valve springs are sorry this is my first go at a proper engine

013 by shergar3, on Flickr
the liners look ok as well, no scoring or any damage that i can see how do i go about checking if they are still within spec ?

my next problem is rust flakes in the water jacket and head and how to i go about getting it out/


015 by shergar3, on Flickr

also the manifold shutter control is seized the rest of the manifold looks ok , tried to undo the cover plate where the exhaust fits on and i can't shift the bolts and don't want to give it too much and break it, what should i do?

wayne

[Dandy Dave]

The exhaust valves look like they have been hot. Best to take the head apart and check the valves and seats as it may need a valve job. Looks like Cylinder #1 is an oil burner and may need rings as it is quite carboned up. I usually just high pressure wash the head to get any rust out, but you can also have it tanked in a lye solution at your local engine machine shop. To check the head for warpage, you need a straight edge and some feeler gages. A machinest's ruler that spans the whole lengh of the head is an excellent choice. If you see light underneath, and the feeler gages slide under anywhere along the flat surface, then the head is warped and should be planed. Manifold bolts are always a problem and sometimes requires heat from a cutting torch, and lots of patients. It is not uncommon to have a stuck heat exchanger in an old manifold. Dandy Dave!

[shergar]

thanks for the info dave

i wondered why pot no 1 was all black compared to the others . another question is how do you check if the liners are still within spec if they were ok was just going to hone up and while i was in there replace rings on all cylinders, going to remove the engine then how do i go about checking the crank and camshaft for wear also the rear crank seal looked like it had been leaking badly

thanks wayne

[Dandy Dave]

Do you feel a ridge toward the top of the liner? That will give you a quick indication of wear. You will need telescoping gages and a micrometer, or similar machinest tools to get an accurate measument. Dandy Dave!

[shergar]

no don't feel a ridge at the top of the liner . does the colour inside the liner indicate if there something been wrong there smooth with no scoring but brown in colour , could she had been overheated at some time?

007 by shergar3, on Flickr
my next question is about the oil pump , i was reading a article in a vintage tractor Magazine and they were checking the oil pump with feeler gauges checking around outside tolerances and backlash of the gears , can't remember the measurements i think it was on an old international but are these measurements generic to all pumps of different makes and models ? if not what are they for major pumps.

thanks again wayne

[Brian]

The only test you do on the oil pump is: immerse the oil pump intake tube in a mixture of three parts kerosene to one part SAE 30 W oil. Rotate the pump at around 60 rpm and the pump should draw oil up the intake tube and out of the delivery hole. (Paraphrased from the manual).

Brown colouring is normal.

Remember you have to fit the oil pump back so that the drive slots are in the right place for the distributor to be on Number 1. The drive gear on the pump must be fitted so that when the pump is fully home, the large "D" on the drive is pointing to No. 2 cylinder.

[super6954]

The only test you do on the oil pump is: immerse the oil pump intake tube in a mixture of three parts kerosene to one part SAE 30 W oil. Rotate the pump at around 60 rpm and the pump should draw oil up the intake tube and out of the delivery hole. (Paraphrased from the manual).

Hi Brian
That is a very interesting comment on the oil pump. from what you seem to be saying if it picks up the solution it is not far wrong.
when I rebuild diesel Major motors here I hold the intake pipe over a tank of varsol cleaner and spin them over by hand to flush them. After this i usually take the end off and put oil and light assembly grease in to the gears to help prime the pump if it sits a while before running.
Would I be right in thinking that if the pump will pick up the thin cleaning fluid. I don't really need to measure everything just prime it and put it back and it will work good enough. Or would a diesel be different due to compression force and need more oil pressure to stop bearing failure and need to be more critical . I have never heard about this method before on a Fordson
Regards Robert.

[Dandy Dave]

If you do not feel a ridge on the inside top edge of the liners they are most likely in very good condition. I would still pull the pistons and check the rings as they may be sticky. If someone in the past was a little ruff putting it back together, it could also have a broken ring, but you wont know without checking. Dandy Dave!

[Brian]

Robert,
That is what the "bible" says about testing the oil pump and that is the way I have always done it for a few hundred engines. All the mechanics did the same so there were actually many hundreds of engines that had their pumps checked that way.

I cannot remember one failed oil pump although, if we were building a "new" engine rather than a recond. one, or if we could see visible wear on the gears, then we would use a new pump or new gears. The same criteria was applied to combine harvester engines. On the later '000 nd series the oil pumps were always checked with feeler gauges against the required specifications but this was a differently designed pump.

Interesting about No 1 cylinder though. Henrietta always oils up No 1 plug on light work even though she has had new rings. I have always thought it was because it was the coolest running cylinder or possibly the coolest part of the manifold what with the fan blowing on it. If I run on petrol or a high petrol content in the TVO mix, the problem does not occur.

[super6954]

Thanks Brian
when I have the end cap off I usually take the one gear out and kinda have a look in just to make sure all is ok with gear teeth and scoring
Nobody here in Canada wants to spend $150 on a new pump, I know it is maybe a false economy . But as you know the customer is always right until his decision totals something when it goes wrong, Then its our fault for not telling him .
So If I threw the I&T out and got the proper ford book it would tell me this Then .
Have a good day
Regards Robert

[shergar]

a question for brian

does you carburettor and fuel tank tap look like this?

027 by shergar3, on Flickr

008 by shergar3, on Flickr
reads in my book about a separate starting carburettor which mine dose not have or has never had? i also says nothing about a double fuel tank tap which mine has, do i have the wrong carburettor or did they come like this from the factory.
the reason i ask is that i have never seen her run so never driven her just want to know she is piped up right .

thanks wayne

[Brian]

The seperate starting carbs were a total failure and were modified to the type both you and I have. Its a petrol/kero. so they have two tanks and a tap for each.

Turn on the petrol, start her on petrol, once hot turn off the petrol and open the kero. tap. You will find that you also have to balance the rad shutters to keep her in the centre of the temp gauge.

Have you checked the Wiki from the home page and seen my article and pictures on Henrietta's overhaul?

[shergar]

thanks brian

it all makes sense now so if you doing very light work or just pottering around you could run on straight petrol ?

i will have another at the wiki been a while since i have looked on there.

someone said to me may be the reason the timing gears have worn like that is because of very lo oil pressure and the gears getting no lubrication what do you think. also going to check out the crank and cam to see if there is any damage .

thanks again wayne

[Dandy Dave]

A lot of early tractors over here were also run on Kerosene. Running a tractor on straight Petrol is not a problem. In the old days back here when petrol was a nickle, and Kero was two cents, to save money the farmers would run Kero. But it developed less HP and the engine and manifold do run hotter then straight petrol as Kero has more BTU's. Dandy Dave!

[Brian]

I would do a total strip down if it were mine. The damage caused would not be due to lack of oil pressure or lubrication in my view, all the gears in there are splash lubricated and there is normally enough oil floating around for them to be OK.

The first area to give problems due to low/no oil pressure is the crank, cam shaft and pistons. To loose the teeth on the auxiliary drive shaft and pump gear would possibly indicate a seized oil pump so I would check that very carefully when you re-assemble it. Things may have gone wrong in your governor at some time, again loading the drive gears, but we just do not know.

[shergar]

engine and manifold do run hotter then straight petrol as Kero has more BTU's.

what does BTU'S mean?

going to remove the engine tomorrow to inspect the crank and cam but when removing the pistons do you push them out the top or pull them from the bottom and is it easier to do this first before removing the engine , thing may have gone wrong in the governor as it has been repaired at some point.


051 by shergar3, on Flickr


thanks wayne

[Brian]

BTU = British Thermal Unit a measurement of the heat released when something burns.

Pistons come out through the top.