Backend oil

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Nick
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Backend oil

Post by Nick »

Got some 80w90 oil, would this do for the backend on my major?
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Salvador
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Salvador »

Hi Nick. Go two lines above to Brian's post on Fordson Major oil specifications an you will find the answer. Salvador

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Re: Backend oil

Post by Nick »

Hi Salvador, yes i saw that post as that is where i looked first. But my question is, would it work? Seems a bit thicker but i would of thought it should work, anyone had any bad experiences with it?
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super6954
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Re: Backend oil

Post by super6954 »

Hi Nick
In theory it would work but in practice I think there is some additives in it that might eat the bronze parts in bearings and the old leather seals from something I read on here a while ago i think it has to do with the GL5 part :| . Also the hydraulics might not like it as its thick and on cold days it will get thicker.

Belarus tractors use it on final drives/ transmission, If a guy doesn't want to buy synthetic here in Canada as Its about $15 a litre and you need 40 just in the transmission, it sets like toffee and you can pile it up with a shovel when it hits minus -5 0c and lower(- 30) in the winter it has to be heated in a steel can with a blow tourch to get it to pour in drive hubs when doing repairs in the field its lube properties go out the window that cold but its the customer choice :cry: .
Regards Robert
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Nick
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Nick »

Well I decided that because the backend was filled up with horrid gungy oil for years, I put some 80w90 in last night with a view to flushing it out at a later date if the hydraulics dont agree with it.
The hydraulics work fine with it in there, infact they are alot quicker than with thinner oil in strangely!
I would assume I can also use it for the gearbox oil?
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super6954
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Re: Backend oil

Post by super6954 »

Hi Nick
If your hydraulics work better your pump could be on its way to being cream crackered :cry: as the thick oil will take up the ware better, it won't bypass in the pump so easy till it heats up and goes thinner. its a bit like putting higher grade oil in a motor when the bearing shells are bad. Runs great pressure till it warms up and looses crank oil pressure pretty quick after that. :wink: .
Did you clean the hydraulic filter screen under the tractor to as sometimes that will give a huge increase in flow if the pumps not trying to drag oil through 2" of crud as well.
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Nick »

Yes i did clean the filter and drained the backend completely. I may have exaggerated about the hydraulics working 'better', they move at roughly the same speed, but with the thinner oil in, they dropped over about a week, with this oil, as its thicker (i assume), they seem to not have dropped at all as yet!
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super6954
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Re: Backend oil

Post by super6954 »

Ah ok that would make sense too I just hope that oil doesn't eat any of the old remaining seals that have the leather in and cause more problems.
Good luck :)
Regards Robert
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Pavel »

Whilst I'm not a full bottle on the Fordson hydraulics, I wonder how relevant it is that your lift arms stay up longer whilst using a thicker oil. My FMD has the thin mono grade in it and, provided the lift arm lever is in the full lift position, the arms stay up for a week or more.
Pavel

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Re: Backend oil

Post by R W »

Always used 90 in the backend, no problems with hydraulics or backend in 40 years.

Brian
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Brian »

Just a bit of clarification:

90W gear oil will work perfectly in the Fordson Major, there are no problems at all although, after 1958, Ford specified 20/30W for all tractors back to 1951.

90W gear oil will NOT work in Super Majors or Dexta tractors because of the differences in the hydraulic lift. When cold, the oil will not flow through the valves and drillings easily.

Yes, I have seen it used. One of our crafty older service engineers, when sent out to a Super with dropping lift problems, would change the 20/30W for 90W so that he did not have to take the lift off. It stopped the lift dropping whilst the oil was cold, but someone always had to go back the next day to service the lift properly and change the oil again back to 20/30W. I, and my younger colleagues got caught a number of times until that person was taken off hydraulic work.

There are no issues with metal compatibility in the back end or gearbox on any of the Major tractors including the E27N.
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Re: Backend oil

Post by super6954 »

Hi Brian
From what you are saying then the GL5 in gear oil wont eat bronze bearing cages or the leather in the old seals. I cant find the post where guys were talking about it a lot, but i did find a guy asking about GL5 and yellow metal 7 pages in to this board and he got no reply :( . I have had a couple of majors with gear oil in and the bottom pto drop box seals have no leather left just the metal case and spring. so is that just through general age and it would happen with any oil :?: .Leather seals are a bit before my time, i'm from the synthetic or rubber generation :lol:
Regards Robert
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AdrianNPMajor
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Re: Backend oil

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Hi Robert. The seal in the pto housing slung under the gearbox is a rubber lip seal, as is the seal on the output shaft from the gearbox to the rear transmission (these two in tandem stop the oil from draining from the gearbox to the rear transmission). The only leather seals I have come across were the outer seals on the bull pinions of Diesel majors. The inner seal on the bull pinion was a rubber lip seal.

Hope this is helpful.

Brian
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Brian »

Robert,

I cannot remember leather seal in these tractors, back in the 60's when I was replacing the seals you mention they were plastic double lipped lip seals and the only problem we had was fitting the one that went against the chamfer, without the proper tool. :D

There were certainly no problems with the bronze bearing cages.

The first Majors up to 1958 had 90W gear oil as standard, it was only the introduction of Multiuse oils and the idea that a farmer would only need one oil for engine, gearbox, rear axle and hydraulics, that fuelled the change for the earlier tractors.

Hypoid or EP oil was never specified in the manuals or instruction books, these are the ones with extra additives I believe.

I seem to remember people mentioning problems on the Model "N" bronze worm drive if the correct oil was not used but in the Major range the load in the axle is taken on steel teeth not a bronze worm. That is my understanding but I am not an expert on the Model "N". :wink:

There is no special oil specified in the service data, prior to the 1958 spec change, just "Gear Oil 90" Vigzol, "Gear Oil Light" Agricastrol, "Gear Oil 90" Esso, BP and Shell and Mobiland "Gear Oil 90 Tractor Oil".

Perhaps Barry M will come in on this as he worked in the oil industry.
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Re: Backend oil

Post by super6954 »

Thanks for the replies Guys
Most of the seals that I have changed and the replacements on the pto Have been rubber too :) . for some reason the power major that im working on now for resale has this leather type seals in the unit. I guess thats another little fordson mystery :?
. It is a steel housing like normal that has a washer crimped in the end to close it up, Then the tension spring in the middle is kinda like the folded segment spring in the middle of a three piece piston ring, if you know what i mean by that. when I took them out there was about an inch piece of leather in the groove and no rubber parts at all :? .
Regards Robert
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BarryM
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Re: Backend oil

Post by BarryM »

Robert,

There are many versions of SAE90 Gear Oil available. The only type suitable for a Fordson Major is SAE90 GL1, which is a straight mineral oil with very few additives. The use of 90 Grade Oil with Prefixes like EP, Mild EP, HD and GX are to be avoided. While the Fordson doesn't use Bronze Gears, it does use Bronze Bushes in some Gears. The additives of EP, HD. GX90 will attack these Bushes and eat in to them. It also eats the leather in Leather Seals. Just recently I was able to purchase the correct Bull Pinion Seals for the E27N and they are still of the Leather type.
BarryM

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Re: Backend oil

Post by super6954 »

Hi Barry
Thanks for the reply, Brian had hoped you would pick up the thread on this :) , so now we all know the answer from the oil god :).
I thought i was on the right track with the Additives and the destruction of bronze and leather, some of the bearings in the major gear box have bronze cages in them, so in time i guess they will fail too :cry: .
This is why the leather seals in my pto are shot ,The tractor had EP 80w90 gear oil from what the last owner said and from the stink, probably with GL5 in too for good measure :cry:. The gear box is out so I will check it all very carefully to make sure alls good :)
Thanks again
Regards Robert
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Gman »

Are we saying the Ford specifications put out are wrong? The local new holland dealers here have a 20/30 mix which they sell for the fordson trans and rear end. I'm not sure about any prefixes, plan to look at my 5 gallon kits later today and see what they say.
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Brian
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Brian »

No there is nothing wrong with the Fordson specification, they were specifying 90W NOT EP 90 or Hypoid 90 which contain the harmful additives.

The Multiuse oils 20/30W or HD20/30W or HD30 or 30W are fine. The HD in these cases is for High Detergent for diesel engines. The oils I personally would avoid is any form of synthetic oil, on the advice of my oil supplier.
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Re: Backend oil

Post by patch »

Taking a chance here. been a long time. I am the guy who rigged a hose to pump the rear overflow back to the trans. Anyway. I have managed with a lift that will not stay up. Sounds familiar to some of you I know. Plenty lifting power, then right back down. I recall long ago when I first got the tractor reading the leather washers gave out invariably. I have spent several hours now trying to locate info on here now since my son who is far more able than I has a yen to repair the good tractor. Any help ? It is an early Major Diesel sold new in Charlotte N.C.
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patch
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Re: Backend oil

Post by patch »

Oh, and the oil, my parts guy said I should use 90 weight mineral oil ? So I did.
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Re: Backend oil

Post by blackbob »

One of the favourite sayings of an old boss was, 'if in doubt, use a hammer; the bigger the doubt, the bigger the hammer!' :D

So if you're not sure what's leaking, get a kit and renew everything http://www.fixthatford.com/index.php?ma ... 8fa08d5161

The lift on my tractor wouldn't stay up at all when I got it, but I only had to change the seal in the cylinder, and it will now stay up for days without drooping an inch. I seem to remember it being an o-ring, but this looks more like a lipped seal? http://www.mayhilltractors.com/index.ph ... ct_id=1012

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Brian
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Brian »

http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/wiki/ ... epair.html

You will need "fordsontractorpages" and password "dotty" to view (possibly).

When I wrote the article I had forgotten that the Super Major piston seal will fit but the one I had made is was cheaper.
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oehrick
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Re: Backend oil

Post by oehrick »

Water hydraulic systems with leather seals which run warm can suffer microbial attack - the big presses ALCO had up in Workington could eat a set of seals in a shift, rams over a foot dia and seals about 1 1/2" square, there was a smell associated with this I can't describe, really bad silage or sour slurry quite pleasant by comparison.

Given the amount of water the Fordson back ends seem to collect there is an outside chance that seal eating or a particularly rancid smell might be other than oil additives at work, be careful as getting this stuff in an open cut was usually a hospital job :curse:

Having said that I can't say I've come across a leather seal in an E1A :scratchhead: :scratchhead:
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Brian
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Re: Backend oil

Post by Brian »

In my experience the only tractors Ford ever used leather seals in were the '000 Series from 1965 to 1968. The ram cylinder piston had an "O" ring with a leather backing seal. This got replaced with a plastic backing ring after 1968 and it was used in service to replace the leather ones.

We had loader rams, trailer rams and some digger rams with leather seals
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