'Crisp' engine noise.

[Nick]

I now know what is meant by a 'crisp' engine note on a major. A customer of mine is also into fordsons, he has three majors which he is doing up. I went round there yesterday to fit an outside light above his unit and he was working on an industrial major with a holman compressor on the back.
The engine was cold, he pressed the cold start button, it cranked for about a second and started instantly (like a major should im told). The engine noise was amazing, it sounded right if you know what I mean.
The annoying thing in all of this is my major, even after ive re-built the engine and run it in, doesnt sound crisp, and still smokes alot!

I think it must be timing related, but I cannot check the timing on mine because for whatever reason it has an early sump without the inspection cover thingy, and a later engine, without the pointer by the front pulley!

It cant be that far out of timing because it runs, but the pinch bolt is adjusted right over to one side, arent they supposed to be set right in the middle?

The syptoms of mine are its quite hard to start in cold weather even with the button pushed in, I can hear some knocking which im assuming is injector knock, it sounds almost fluffy when running, and it smokes blue (not oil) when idling, this goes away the more its revved.

I may end up buying a proper sump for it and doing the timing properly if I cant solve it

[Bensdexta]

Perhaps youcan post a video with recording on youtube, & link here?

[Dandy Dave]

I believe the timing marks on an early Major are seen though an inspection hole back by the flywheel if memory serves me right. Dandy Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

Ahhh Yessss. From the Manual.

[Nick]

Yes thats correct, but this little cover you see the timing marks through is on the sump, which on mine because its an early tractor (and i assume it has its original sump) and had an engine change.

[Nick]

Ben, good idea about the video, how do I post it? Best on youtube, then copy the link?
I also need to replace to the plastic pump drive thing aswell because its clicking.

[Bensdexta]

Ben, good idea about the video, how do I post it? Best on youtube, then copy the link?
I also need to replace to the plastic pump drive thing aswell because its clicking.

Yes like this guy did for his International (post #49)
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showth ... 318&page=3

You could post another of your friend's crisp sounding Major too

[Nick]

Im unfortunately not up there again for a bit but I will video mine starting later and try and post it up if I have time. When I did the bottom end on my engine, a 'so called' mechanic who is a mate of mine turned up and had a quick look at the head, he turned it upside down and poured some petrol around the valves and told me they were ok.
Im not a pessimist, but should I have inspected further? If the valves arent seating properly it will be harder to start because of less compression, and that would make the engine not sound right aswell i suppose.
But would leaking valves make it smoke?

[Dandy Dave]

I think I would get an accurate measurement of where the timing hole in the sump housing should be and use a hole saw to cut a hole. If the flywheel was not changed, it should have the marks. On the valves, If the guides are badly worn on the intakes, the valve seals are gone, and oil has a path to poor though, the answer would be yes. but not likely on a FMD. Dandy Dave!

[Nick]

That is a good idea dave, i would assume the sumps are exactly the same apart from not having the hole? Ive got another major with the timing hole, so I can measure it from that one.
I also videod mine starting today, and ive tried getting it on youtube, but im having trouble. It says ive uploaded it, then you look on my profile and it isnt there!

[Nick]

http://youtu.be/P1u4p-gKrho

I have now managed to upload the video to youtube, im not sure whether the above link will work, if it doesnt, type 'poorly fordson major cold start' into the search bar on youtube.

[halloween]

http://youtu.be/P1u4p-gKrho

Think this is how it should go.....

[AdrianNPMajor]

Watched the video. Compression sounds decent enough. The unburnt fuel is obvious from the colour of the exhaust so looks like a timing issue. First thing to check is tappets. Assuming they are correctly adjusted, then it does come down to lining up the mark on the flywheel with the slot in the non-existent inspection hole!

This sounds like a job for Brian! Sorry I can't help more.

Best wishes

Adrian

[super6954]

Hi Nick
If you know for definate you have the correct flywheel with marks on, I would personally just put the proper oil pan on with the hole in. if you drill and put the timing mark on your self, Chances of getting it 100% correct are pretty slim. Then you may still not get it timed right by a few degrees. the other question is what engine and pump do you have as there are a few variations on pumps/ injectors and the timing needed that could throw issues, then If its a truck motor that might be different too. .

Did you have the pump and injectors tested as one cylinder is not right as you say in the video but then if the heads wrong you could have issues there too ,This is kinda a game of too many don't knows at the moment from what i read and see, as every problem compounds each other in some way
Personally I would get the timing 100% right for your motor combination and see what happens, then go with checking the head and the injectors if condition not known, then pump as a last resort as its expensive to do.
It does take way too long to fire up my super starts in - 10oc with less turns than this one and mines a complete motor re build as well .
shes a nice looking tractor so will be great if you can get her right in the end .
Regards Robert

[Dandy Dave]

Hi Nick
If you know for definate you have the correct flywheel with marks on, I would personally just put the proper oil pan on with the hole in. if you drill and put the timing mark on your self, Chances of getting it 100% correct are pretty slim. Then you may still not get it timed right by a few degrees. the other question is what engine and pump do you have as there are a few variations on pumps/ injectors and the timing needed that could throw issues, then If its a truck motor that might be different too. .

Did you have the pump and injectors tested as one cylinder is not right as you say in the video but then if the heads wrong you could have issues there too ,This is kinda a game of too many don't knows at the moment from what i read and see, as every problem compounds each other in some way
Personally I would get the timing 100% right for your motor combination and see what happens, then go with checking the head and the injectors if condition not known, then pump as a last resort as its expensive to do.
It does take way too long to fire up my super starts in - 10oc with less turns than this one and mines a complete motor re build as well .
shes a nice looking tractor so will be great if you can get her right in the end .
Regards Robert

Ahhh Yes. A degree or two. But now you have something to go by, Now you can make a more accurate measurement and cut the notch with a file... A degree or two does not make that much of a difference in timing. Being out 5 or 6... That makes a very big difference. Dandy Dave!

[Nick]

I had the injectors re-conditioned when i did the engine, so i dont reckon its them. From what ive been told its a truck engine so the degrees btdc should be 23 am i correct?
The other thing is, i dont mind changing the sump, but I dont know for sure it has the marks on it, and where do I get a sump? ive seen none on ebay for ages!

[henk]

Nick

I had mine out of line about 3 degrees and it smoked like hell.
I would try to set it by adjusting it every time a little and see if it improves or is getting worse. If you then find the right setting mark it somewhere.
Also the damping valve on the front end of your pump might need a bit of adjustment, but that's in second place.

[dexta roadless]

It sounds to me that you have a timing issue. if there were valves, injectors or fuel pump it will fire on one or to and then the remaining a bit later. It also sound like it is running a bit restrained as to be a late injection.

[Nick]

Well i tried to adjust the timing on the pump coupling, undid the two pinch bolts, but it wont move at all! I assume that it should??? I tried tapping it but it wont budge!

[super6954]

Hi Nick
yes it should move, it could be that it is tight all the way round in the slot one way, did you try the other way. it could be the slots are filled with 50 years of crap and it wont turn in the slots as there is no room for the bolts to move. or it could all just be stuck together with rust and dirt between all the parts .
It may pay to whip the pump off and work on the coupling that way just making sure it goes back in the same place so ya pumps not 180 degrees out of time . At least then you could see whats wrong as it is possible to wreck the couplings if you go too wild at it, trust me I know .
Is that a live drive tractor with 2 stage clutch as if it is, it should have the timing marks on the flywheel if your wondering if they are there for the timing hole . I think its only the really old dead single clutch that had no timing marks on the flywheel.
Regards Robert

[Nick]

Robert,
I think taking the pump off is my only option here, as I do have to replace the plastic pump drive thingy, the one on mine clicks like hell, theres almost 2mm of movement and it sounds rubbish! So I reckon once I take the pump off all will become clear.

It is a dead drive one, not live drive, so before I start taking sumps off etc, Im going to replace the pump drive and see if I can get it running better by adjusting it by the pump.

[henk]

2 mm is way to much. This could be part of the problem.

[Pavel]

Nick, I'm not sure if you have a 'genuine' workshop manual for your Major [you wrote that you had re-built the engine] but if you have you might like to refer to the camshaft timing sequence. I, unfortunately, do not -- but... Usually, to time a camshaft the gap of the inlet valve for no. 1 cylinder is set at so many thou and is timed to start opening at X degrees BTDC. By using the crankshaft pulley you could then set this as a datum mark and proceed from there to determine TDC and then your timing degrees. I would suggest that this is cheaper than buying a new sump -- and easier than removing the cylinder head to find TDC.
Please don't take this as a criticism, but I am frequently amazed at how many engine re-conditioners fail to use a dial guage on no.1 piston to determine the accuracy of the TDC mark whilst being aware that mass production involves pluses and minuses in their machinery setups. I recently did this on my Peugeot car and found a discrepancy of 2 degrees.
Pavel

[Nick]

Pavel, no I havent got a 'genuine' major manual, but if anyone has one, could they photocopy the page on timing and post it please? So you can do the timing without the marks on the flywheel?

[super6954]

Hi Nick
unless proved wrong by someone that has a genuine manual its gonna be hard to do this, as I don't think half the info you need will be there.
The major is not as technical as this modern stuff. Ford screwed stuff up but i can't see the marks being that far out .
Unless you move gears a tooth in the timing case the only adjustment on a major is the pump drive .

It does say in my book set pump timing and turn the motor over to check alignment to allow for gear lash .
on cars there is distributor settings some have variable timing adjustment pulleys, they can be altered by moving the pulley with the belt if fitted. That's why most cars pile the motor if the belt snaps valves stay down and the piston doesn't know and comes up and smashes the lot .

If I can't find TDC I use a soft wire and put it down the Injector hole on top of the piston. What i do is turn the motor over the right way till no 1 has just closed both valves. then use the piece of soft thin wire,like lock wire don't use a long screwdriver. It will make a mess if you snap the end off in the cylinder, the wire bends , poke it down on to the piston. Then turn the motor the right way.Holding the wire lightly so you feel whats happening . you will need help from somebody with patience to turn the motor for you .
The wire should come up with the piston and when the piston hits TDC the wire should stop before going over center and then traveling down . what i would do is put a mark on the timing case face at say 12 oclock to the pulley, Then work the pulley marks to this point.
There will be a few degrees of turn where it don't move before TDC and going over TDC.
when you find this turn the motor both ways mark them at the stop and start movement points. TDC should be in the middle of the 2 marks put a mark there . Label BTDC or after on the other marks if it helps. Line TDC up on your case mark, crank should be at highest point of travel . Then your gonna need a timing protractor or something to work out the degrees you need before TDC and mark that.
Turn the motor back to the degree mark like 23 BTDC or what ever you needed and see if your pump coupling marks are close.
This is technical i know My dad just read it and thinks it's right what I'm trying to say .
This is not gonna be 100% acurate more like 98.9% but its all I can suggest without pulling the head and a dial gauge or the propper marks on the motor which is getting to the point of doing, from what I can see if it was mine to be honest.
Good luck
Regards Robert