Timing - no flywheel marks, no pulley notch, no pointer

[SteveB]

This is a follow-up to '592E compression' as it's a new problem.

Re my 592E industrial engine. Compression good, new injector nozzles, valve clearances set - but still difficult to start.

Am now looking to check and retard or advance timing - but although there's an inspection cover on the sump, there are no degree marks on the flywheel (and I've turned it over inch by inch).

Also, there's no notch on the pulley or a pointer, as there should be for earlier engines. So maybe the flywheel had been changed at some time. Have read most posts re timing but would like to hear any advice possible on how to approach this when there are no guide marks at all - except the two marks that line up on the injection pump.

Regards

[Nick]

Hi there mate, i had a similar problem with my engine as its got an early sump with no hole, and also no pointer on the pulley. What i did was adjust the timing ever so slightly on the pump coupling, literally a millimeter at a time.

[JC]

Hi Steve
Here's how Pat located the timing marks on his flywheel.
http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/phpbb ... 6&start=25

[SteveB]

Thanks Nick and JC. While I'm digesting the 'Pat link' discussion, a quick question.

The SIMMS injection pump is a 70S, i.e. with 7mm plungers. It has been reconditioned and the 7mm plungers replaced by 7.5mm ones.

I've read elsewhere that this would make a difference to the timing setting. Is this true?

[SteveB]

One more question.

As there are no marks on the flywheel and nothing else to go by, Is it possible to work out what the current setting is, perhaps by turning the engine to BTDC on #1 cylinder and . . . and what?

[JC]

If you use a dead stop like Pat did, you can find top dead center. Then you could use a degree wheel and find the timing mark.
The Fordson manual says not to use a 75S pump on a mk 1 engine, but I have heard of people who have done it. From what I've read in the manuals, both pumps pump the same volume of fuel. The timing maybe slightly different because of that. That's probably why the Mk 1 engine is timed at 26 BTDC and the MK 2 is 23.

[SteveB]

I think that's the problem, JC. The 70S pump has been replaced with, effectively, a 75S. The following is from the July 1959 manual supplement (Major/Power Major):
______________

Pumps incorporating 7.0 mm. diameter elements, type No. SPE.4A.70S.
Pumps incorporating 7.5 mm. diameter elements, type No. SPE.4A.75S.

As the injection pump housing will accommodate either diameter element, it is possible to convert the previous pump to the current type if required. If this action is necessary it is essential that . . . when refitted to the engine the correct injection pump timing angle is used.
______________

So, with a 'dead stop' and a degree wheel the mechanic (who's coming back tomorrow) will be able to find what the current setting is and change it. Or we do adjustments on the pump coupling, retarding it 'a millimeter at a time'.

One extra piece of information: the claw bolts on the coupling are right at the 'advance end' of the adjustment slot. Does that suggest 29 degrees for an early Mark I engine?

[Nick]

Interesting you should say that about the timing right over to one side steve, because mine is exactly the same! I adjusted it to the middle of the coupling and it wouldnt fire at all so i moved it back ever so slightly until it started and ran sweet. Obviously you will only know when its in exactly the correct place when the engine is hot, and your working it to know whether the power is right, and of course that it doesnt smoke (if its a new engine like mine is). Also the exhaust note will be 'crisp'. As brian always says, there is nothing like a major engine under load, they do sound nice when they are right.

A mate of mine recently bought an industrial major (yellow in colour) with a huge compressor on the back. It hadnt run for years, we got it back, changed the oil and filters, also the diesel. Bled it through, put a big battery on it, and after a few turns it started. It ran faultlessly, smoked hardly at all, and the noise from the exhaust was amazing, so crisp. Thats when i knew mine wasnt right lol!

[JC]

The dead stop just has to be something that goes into the injector hole to stop the piston close to top dead center. Pat used a bolt, spring and plate, with some washers to adjust the point where the piston stops. Roll the engine over ( very slowly, you don't want to damage the piston) until it stops. Mark the spot on the flywheel that lines up with the timing mark on the sump. Roll it over the opposite direction until it stops and mark that spot. Measure half way between those two marks and that will be top dead center. It would probably be easier to make a pointer and put your timing marks on the front crank pulley instead of trying to work through the hole in the sump. After you find TDC, attach the degree wheel to the pulley and put 0 degrees on your TDC mark. Then you can put marks every couple of degrees or just mark 23 and 26.

[SteveB]

That's great, JC. Many thanks. Marking the pulley sounds the way to go as the engine is deep in the boat and you need a mirror to see through the inspection hole. I'll report back.

[JC]

One thing that I forgot to mention. If you're looking at the engine from the back (flywheel end) the numbers get bigger as you go counter clockwise.

[SteveB]

Yes, got that, thanks. The front pulley is 7.5in diameter (the manual also says 7.5in or 190.5 mm). The circumference then turns out handily to be almost dead on 60 cm (59.847), which gives an arc length for a degree of 1.66 mm (600/360). So 23 is 38.33 mm and 26 is 43.33 mm.

So once I've got TDC, I should be able to measure them off - but only after doing the calculation a few more times

[JC]

That should work, if you transfer your measurements to something flexible that you can wrap around the circumference of the pulley.

[SteveB]

And after all that, it wasn't anything to do with different pump plungers, changing the timing, marking pulleys etc.

How stupid is this? It turned out that when the pump was replaced last summer the plate on the drive coupling had slipped somehow, which accounted for the bolts being at one end of the slot. The mechanic noticed a change of colour on the plate where it had swivelled. Which is why it suddenly went from a good starter to a very poor one, the timing being significantly retarded.

He swivelled it back to its proper place, tightened the bolts and it started straight away from cold. So I think the timing was probably always 23.

Oh well, at least I've had a compression check, got new injector nozzles and had the valves re-set.

Maybe that's what happened to yours, too, Nick, your bolts being at one end of the slot. Mine are now back in the middle.

Thanks for all the help and advice. I also now know a lot more about engine timing - and that it's no good looking for degree marks on my flywheel. And I now have a Plan B if it ever goes awry again.

Regards