The Fordson Tractor Pages Forum

Hello again,

I'm back with a few questions. I'm in the process of getting 2 new tires installed on my major (to the tune of $2000..... ouch with Calcium installed in the tubes), that should happen on Tuesday, getting some Samson MaxiTrac R1's installed. After that, after having the Major down all summer, I'm finally getting around to removing the oil pan to replace the front and rear seals.

Can the upper rope seal be replaced while the pan is off, or does the crankshaft need to be lowered? I know on some of the older Ford pickup engines, I was able to roll the new seal in without dropping the crank down.

The rear crank seal, does it need to be soaked in oil before being installed?

As for removing the oil pan, I plan on making a cradle out of some spare lumber kicking around to support the weight of the pan on my floor jack without being awkward due to the shape of the oil pan and center of gravity.

I'm also looking for 4 of the injector seals that seal the injector to the cylinder head, I was looking on New Holland's website, but for the part, it says Procure Locally, not sure how or where to find those. I know that Agriline lists them but I would prefer to get them here, a little easier on the pocketbook, for shipping costs.

If I think of anything more, I will post up on here.

Thanks

1. You have to split the tractor and remove the flywheel to get to the upper seal. It is mounted in an aluminium housing held in by three bolts.



2. It is best to soak it in oil and be sure to trim the ends leaving about 1/8" protruding on either side when the seal is fully home in the housing.

3. The oil pan does not come straight down, it has to be angled slightly to get it clear. Do not forget the one bolt "up the hole" at the front and the two bolts that go in from the front of the clutch housing flange that are hidden under the side channels.

funny you should metion this i have always wondered if you chould undo the upper half of the seal with just the sump off by undoing the three bolts and slideing it out the bottom ,might be a bit of a faff and might need to make a spanner to suit, but if you only wanted to do the seal it whould save some time ,dont know i think i might try just to see let me know how you get on if you try that

Sometimes we would use a sneeky pete seal tool.... https://www.google.com/search?q=sneeky+ ... x&tbm=shop

Calcium is a farmers dream and a restorers nightmare. If you plan on working the tractor heavy a lot, go ahead. If you will use it once in a while, it is not all that neccesary. Calcium will eventually eat the tire valves and brass parts and will leak into your rims and rust them away. Some of the fellows have been loading the tires with RV antifreeze. It will not rot the rims so bad if you do get a leak. Dandy Dave!

Dandy Dave wrote:
Calcium is a farmers dream and a restorers nightmare.

...also the nightmare of the next farmer to own the tractor!

Alright, finally got around to tearing this tractor apart, had a bit of fun removing one of the bolts that hold the A frame to the axle, it was seized in there.


A little bit of gunk down inside the oil pan.




Cylinder #3 lower o-ring seep (doesn't seem to leak when engine is hot)


Cylinder #2 lower o-ring seep (doesn't seem to leak when engine is hot)


Cylinder #1 lower o-ring seep (doesn't seem to leak when engine is hot)



Going to clean up the pan at work tomorrow, and get ready to install the new seals and gaskets

Hi
I think if that was my motor and I was that far in I would be loosing the don't weep when hot leave it alone attitude
You are probably not that far away from a catastrophic disaster .
looks like it's time to pull the head, pistons and sleeves, then find out whats going on in that block with the sealing rings/sleeves and corrosion.

you don't want to be back in here a month from now you already done half the work to get them out now .
Antifreeze in the oil is bad for the crank bearings/ pistons etc, and sudden loss of coolant is not good either, while working the motor this winter, you might also heat seize it before you really know.
Plus you could be minus a tractor for snow clearing, when you most need it .
I've had customer Majors dump like that before .

They are probably leaking when it runs but it's such a small amount now it boils off and you might not notice it. My friends case 1175 was doing that. It got worse and a gallon of coolant came out with the oil at a service .

I just rebuilt a 466 diesel truck motor it had dumped a couple liner seals and injector sleeves. guys ran it way to long , destroyed the crank bearings. Then corroded the sleeve bores with water sitting between the 3 sleeve sealing rings . It was not actually showing in the sump from the rings. the last one was still holding it only came to light when we pulled the sleeves to put the new ones in. you only got 1 ring in the bottom of that motor
This motor was close to being scrap with my time and parts on the job getting it back right .

I know it's your choice but I've been round these too long now to know better than ignore the signs
Regards Robert

Have to agree with Robert. Seals are there to seal, not leak! I'd have the engine out and rebuild it. As Robert says, you are halfway there and in any case there's no other option. Looking on the bright side you'll end up with a great engine that will outlast its owner! (Assuming that you don't find a problem with the o ring grooves. )

Best

Adrian

I will be ordering o-rings from New Holland, the question of the day is, the block does it take one or 2 o-rings to seal the top of the liner?

Depending on the year and model of your Major the liners will have an o ring at the bottom of the liner for earlier models, and an o ring top and bottom for later models.

To replace the o rings you'll have to pull the liners. Having pulled the liners you'd be unwise not to fit new ones. Having fitted new liners you really have to fit new pistons and rings. To cut a long story short you need an engine rebuild kit!

Having rebuilt the block, it would pay to have the head overhauled - skimmed, new valve guides, seats reground, new springs.

With all the above completed you'll have an engine back to full power.

Best

Adrian

I have a 62 super Major, by the engine serial number, so I'm guessing that would be one at the top, and one at the bottom.

As for a rebuild kit, I do not have $350.00 plus shipping (probably $100) to get it shipped over here right now. I will rebuild the engine eventually, but I need to get this sealed up so I can work it this winter with out worry of the engine seizing up due to loss of coolant or oil.

I thank everyone for the help that they have given me at this time. I know that I am only doing half the job right now, but time and funds are cutting my fun short.

If your budget allows, you could pull and replace the liners fitting new o rings at the same time. If you also replaced just the piston rings you would then have done jobs that cure your problem, with the added benefit that you wouldn't need to redo this part of the engine rebuild when you get round to it - the pistons and liners could be left in situ when you take her apart again, though you might want to check the small end bearings.

The above approach assumes that liners and piston rings are available individually and not part of an engine rebuild kit. I think they are.

Best

Adrian

Hi Origin
Glad to hear you are gonna do something, you could find the sleeves are pretty corroded where the ring sits on the bottom so might have to do them and that choice is made for you .

I just looked on Harvest salvage web site in Brandon MB. They supply A&I jobber parts. They have 2 different part no sleeves on there own , listed for around $47 and $55,piston rings are about $21 plus a bit of shipping also.
If you can find out what the dimensions are for flanges, 2 ring has a deeper top flange than single ring. you could get the sleeves from them, or see if you have local A&I near you with similar pricing. One of the main A&I warehouses is in Sask somewhere .

If it was me I think I would raid the back of the couch for loose change , and try buying the whole kit if the crank doesn't need work. Fingers crossed it doesn't A guy tends to open a whole can of stinky worms when opening up these motors, sometimes a guy wonders why it ran at all when you get in them and see the ware .
Piecing it together will be more expensive in the long run plus twice the work .
A piston sleeve and rings together, will be cheaper than buying the 3 different parts separate at later dates . Also I don't come across many where the piston is really good enough to go back in again they are usually worn bad in the ring grooves .
I can ask my motor guy what a kit's worth nowadays too. I don't think they can touch agrilines prices though. even with being in Canada and adding in shipping agrilines across the pond .
Sorry to say it you are finding the true cost of owning a major with high hours in Canada. This is why I stopped doing them to re sell. No money in them at the end .

Regards Robert

I'm agreeing with Robert again. I wrote my last post after scratching my head as to how to get over your problem without doing what is really necessary ie a complete and thorough rebuild. I obviously didn't scratch my head long enough, and in any case I was in danger of getting splinters! I overlooked the very good point that Robert makes, that the ring grooves in the pistons will be worn. So there really is no sensible and workable shortcut, I am very sorry to say.

The good news remains the same, namely that if you can stretch to the engine rebuild kit, you will end up with an engine as good as the day it left the factory, assuming there are no unpleasant surprises waiting for you and assuming also you get the head refurbished (but this part of the operation could wait, though again you would ideally do it at the same time).

If you can stretch to the rebuild kit, the first thing I'd do before ordering it is to dismantle the engine to see where I stood - again as Robert advises. In particular I'd be keen to see how those lower liner o ring grooves look. I'd also be looking at the camshaft lobes and followers for any wear.

Hope you manage to find a solution. Good luck.

Best

Adrian

Thanks for the advice there Robert and Adrian, I have taken the head off last night, and will be pulling the liners tonight. I am a Journeyman mechanic by trade, and being Ford diesel automotive certified so yes, I do know the importance of a good engine rebuild.

I have messaged agriline to get a cost on shipping a rebuild kit here. see what they get back to me for, for prices.

2 more things,

It looks like the crank was reworked at one point, as it has .020 over markings on it, I will know more when I take the con rods off.

Also, going the rebuild route, being that this tractor is used mainly as a loader tractor, also the only 3 point equipment that I own is a 5' Rough Cut mower (topper), how would I work it good enough to seat the rings in, especially with winter coming?

I always fancied putting my tractor on a dynamometer after the rebuild but didn't have access to one. I have no experience of this so I'm just floating the idea to see what other members think of it as an option to put your engine under load to bed the rings in. Of course, even it is a sensible option, you may not have access to one either!

Best

Adrian

Alright, time for a bunch of pictures.... got the sleeves out tonight, was unable to get a puller, so I used a solid chunk of steel, pressed on it with a 2x4 and my floor jack, and pressed the sleeves out from the bottom (probably not the best way to do it, but it worked in the end)

The o-ring lands look perfect, no corrosion in the sleeve or the block. There was some block sealer in there, have to clean that out before putting the sleeves back in the block.


Cyl #1


Cyl #2


Cyl #3


Cyl #4


All the sleeves out.


Cyl #1 sleeve


Cyl #2 sleeve


Cyl #3 sleeve


Cyl #4 sleeve


Cyl #1 piston


Cyl #2 piston


Cyl #3 piston


Cyl #4 piston


Cyl #1 upper rod bearing (the bearings look in excellent shape)


Cyl #2 upper rod bearing


Cyl #3 upper rod bearing


Cyl #4 upper rod bearing


Shot of the pistons and sleeves


Crank turned down, .030 mains, .020 throw, been machined down once or twice already, seen a few stamped areas.

Hi Origin

Not quite sure what I'm looking at in the cylinder 4 opening - there appears to be a lot of gunk on the crank. Otherwise it looks like you're in a very good place re rebuilding the engine. O ring grooves look great as do the con rod bearings, which is a pretty clear indication you don't need to touch the crankshaft again.

The thing is, how crazy are you about your Major? If you like it enough, what I see in your photos is a great machine well worth putting back in tip top condition, which is where it will be if you can stretch to the rebuild kit.

Great photos by the way.

Best

Adrian

Cyl #4, I put a rag over top of the crank to scrape the block sealer from inside the block, so what you are seeing there is all the block sealer being scraped out onto the rag.

This tractor will get a restore soon.

Not too sure, Origin, how proficient a 'journeyman' is as far as re-conditioning an engine is -- although your descriptions, and pics, suggest you're a dab hand with a spanner. One would hope, though, that you would not re-assembly the p/rings in the manner shown on your no. 1 piston -- they should, of course, be staggered around the piston perimeter.
Since, like many of us, available money is a limiting factor in what could be done, as apposed to what needs to be done, I would suggest that, since the liners appear to be in good condition, you measure the amount of internal wear by inserting a compression ring and, by using a piston pressing the ring down, measure the ring gaps with feelers at the top and bottom of the piston's travel. This will give a fair indication of cylinder wear and whether you can confidently, or not, replace the p/rings only. Of course, you would have to remove any ridge formed on the top part of the liner for fear of shattering the top ring, as well as de-glaze the cylinder walls.
As far as bedding-in the rings by using a PTO driven mower, one of the limiting factors is where in the rev. range the 540 PTO speed is. For diesel engines it is recommended that for the first 2 hours the engine is run under some load at half throttle, and then a greater load, but not at max torque, at three quarter throttle for another 6 hours with the occasional throttling back and up again --but never letting the engine idle.
Since 'wear' is what bedding-in is all about, the choice of oil during this process is important. Modern oils have large doses of anti-wear and anti-scuff additives so it is as well to use either a running in oil [Castrol or Morris] or a cheap mono-grade one; and change it, and the filter, after the 8 hours. Interestingly some diesel re-builders will use only CRC and the like to initially lubricate the rings and bores during assembly.
My apologies if you already know all of this.

Pavel

Robert should know this being in Canada, but being a Journeyman means 4 years of schooling (2 months in class then 10 months in the field working in a shop). Then writing a final called the inter-provincial which spans all 4 years, and all provinces (I took my apprenticeship in the province of Alberta) and there are a few provinces that have different ways of doing things that were not covered in our province.

I have rebuilt a few engines here and there. From small engines (Briggs and Stratton, Kohler, 2 strokes), to V8 Diesels (International/Ford 7.3/6.0/6.4/6.7l) So pulling a wrench or 2 is pretty easy for me.

I'm not trying to push my credentials on you, I'm just showing you that tearing an engine down, I'm no stranger to..... lol. But I do like asking questions to those of who are more knowledgeable on the engines that I have not really worked on.

You obviously know your stuff and the photos you have taken are excellent and very informative. Please keep the posts and photos coming.

Best

Adrian

hi
very interesting post
great pictures
2 questions plz gentlemen
what state were the o rings in ? was there 2 per liner ?


and what is the CRC oil pavel refers too ?

good luck with the re. build

origin wrote:Robert should know this being in Canada, but being a Journeyman means 4 years of schooling (2 months in class then 10 months in the field working in a shop). Then writing a final called the inter-provincial which spans all 4 years, and all provinces (I took my apprenticeship in the province of Alberta) and there are a few provinces that have different ways of doing things that were not covered in our province.

I have rebuilt a few engines here and there. From small engines (Briggs and Stratton, Kohler, 2 strokes), to V8 Diesels (International/Ford 7.3/6.0/6.4/6.7l) So pulling a wrench or 2 is pretty easy for me.

I'm not trying to push my credentials on you, I'm just showing you that tearing an engine down, I'm no stranger to..... lol. But I do like asking questions to those of who are more knowledgeable on the engines that I have not really worked on.

Hi origin
my credentials are a little different from yours, I was not born and raised here , been in Canada for 13 years this october
I have my tickets from the U.k. and loads of experience with fixing different things. My ticket is the U.k NVQ 402. used to be the city and guilds 394 course. Brian probably knows about the course from teaching .
It crosses over to something similar to here for Immigration purposes, and if I ever needed to I can challenge the Canadian papers . Being self employed and having work coming from my ears most days I don't really need to.
I worked a few tractor dealer shops and got fed up with that B/S .

On your motor it looks like # 1 piston has a few more scuffs on the sides than the rest from what i see whats the inside of the bores like , the bearings look a little marked to, so kinda wondering what the service history has been like before you got it, meaning oil/ filter changes, and air cleaner maintenance .
Also from your comment on block seal somebody probably knew those rings where bad, and dumped that in to hide it, before selling it, seen that done before .
As you know antifreeze and bearings/ internal motor parts don't mix, so that could be some of the damage to your bearings. The 466 had that, but from your pictures I can't really tell if it's exactly the same pitting/ marks .
I guess it's looking a lot better than I thought it would so you just got to decide how much your gonna replace and hope it lasts a good while with what you don't change .
Regards Robert