The Fordson Tractor Pages Forum

Hi All,

Read up on some of the posts concerning wiring a Super Major with aftermarket wire looms, and some of the problems associated with the dash bulbs and their metal bases.. According to my manual, the Super Major was grounded with the positive post originally. Would it matter if I grounded it negatively to avoid all the problems with the metal bases on the dash lights I read about in the posts? Or am I trying to make one thing easier while causing other problems? I admit having a mental block trying to understand electrical systems, even simple ones so if you respond please take that into account.

Thanks much

Kerry

The little electrons have no objection to being sent the other way round -- so just change the battery leads around. You'll probably have to change the battery connectors, though, as the posts are usually different sizes.
Having done that you will only need to re-polarise the generator/dynamo.

Pavel

If the Oil and Dynamo charge lights are grounded through the base they will not work correctly no matter what you do. To work correctly, they need to ground, or unground, in the sending unit/ regulator. To do this, the sockets need to be isolated/ not grounded in the dash. Reversing the Battery will not make a difference. Dandy Dave!

This query regarding dynamo and oil dash-light bulb holders was covered extensively a few months ago. Both bulb holders must be double contact types, ie 2 single isolated wires, and not single centre contact ones. They are readily available.

Pavel

Yes. And some of the aftermarket ones do not have the correct sockets. Dandy Dave!

Thanks for your input guys. I worked on the wiring tonight, hooked it up like the manual says, hooking up only what is necessary to get the starter to spin the engine. hope that will happen tomorrow night. I will make sure to isolate the base dash lighting away from the positively grounded tractor metal when I get to it.

Thanks

Kerry

The night lights that work with the light switch need to be grounded. Only the Oil/Charging warning lights are isolated. Dandy Dave!

Thanks Dave! Kerry

Help anyone,

Hooked up my starter tonight to spin engine. Started did not work, nothing, no sound and no smoke. removed it and tried it on the work bench, directly tied to batteries, nothing again and no smoke. Batteries are brand new and tied together, putting out 12.64 volts and about 10050 amps. I even checked the voltage at the end of the jumper cables before trying to spin it.
It worked great at the starter shop , spun like mad. Anyone have any clues as to what is going on? This is the second time this has happened as above. The shop never reported anything wrong the first time they worked on it except that the wires attached to the brushes needed to be moved away from the case a bit, that has been done. what in the heck is going on? I know starters and generators are simple, not complex.

On a related issue..My tractor will be positive ground so, does the cable from negative side of the battery to the solenoid and then to the starter attach to the insulated post of the starter or the ground post? I thought it should go to the insulated post, is that right? Another question....When I finally get the starter to work( or get a new one) and get ready to bolt it in and spin the engine, does the voltage regulator have to be hooked up? I am thinking no since I did get voltage to one side of the starter switch with the key turned on.

Thanks again in advance Kerry

Has the starter been painted? If so, you need a good bare spot to be sure it is well grounded. If not that, then it could be the bolt where the wire enters the starter. Inside, where the wires connect could have a bad connection. Try moving the stud side to side and see if that makes a difference. The stud needs to be snug. But not so tight that you break the insulator. I have had this problem with starters in the past. Dandy Dave!

Thanks Dave,

The posts are good and tight, I just now took the starter to my car battery and jumped it, it spun. I guess I will try charging up the new tractor batteries and see what happens. gets me, I am reading 12.64 volts from the "tied together" batteries, was not able to get the starter to spin, then I disconnected the tractor cables/wires and tried jumping it with jumper cables and got nothing. Auto electric knows I have this weakness and is laughing. Kerry

To really test the batteries you need to do a load test. Sounds like all your cells are good if you are getting a 12 Volt reading. Be sure they are fully charged. Dandy Dave!

There's something not quite right with your battery set-up Kerry - or at least your description of it. Have you got two 6volts ones set up in series, ie with the centre lead connected positive to negative; or two 12volt ones in parallel -- ie positive to positive, and negative to negative? Both systems, if about fully charged and stabilised for a day or so, will give a reading of about the 12.6volts you state [if just off-charge expect around 13volts]. You high voltage cables to the starter are probably capable of handling in the region of 500amps max, with the starter motor demanding up to an initial surge of 400amps for a cold and frosty morning start. Any short comings in a lead's connection will not allow this amperage to flow to the starter -- but could readily supply the few low amps to power lights, etc. Please check your amperage readings again [and I would suggest you would need a clamp-meter to read the higher ones 'cos ten thousand amps is the stuff of power stations].

Pavel

Just revisit what amp scale you were using when you checked, ~10000 milliamps (mA) might be easily misread if using a digital or other multimeter, (=10 Amps) some digital meters autorange their displays so what you read may not be what is on the scale setting.

There was some initial confusion if the batteries were in series or parallel so it might also be worth re checking the high current wire connections in case there is something amiss and a check / charge is well worthwhile. Checking voltages between the ground connection and each terminal of both batteries also might help.

It all comes down to the trapped smoke, as long as you've not let any out yet, you'll get there as it's a known good starter the problem is elsewhere

Hi,

just as a notice: Today I mounted a new solenoid and tested a new clamp meter at different cables. The running starter alone (not coupled to the flywheel) used about 50-60 Ampere. Starting the engine used about 150A. Temperature was at 18 °C.

Peter

Thanks for the info guys,

The batteries I have are new, 12 volt and tied together positive to positive and negative to negative. My positive lead goes to ground, my negative goes to solinoid , then cable on opposite post on soliniod goes to starter insulated post. All mating surfaces between starter and engine are bare clean metal with electronic greese applied including starter bolts. The start switch with key turned on reads 12 volts at soliniod and 12 volts at one side of the mechanical start switch. When I push the start lever forward I got nothing. I have the new batteries charging up bad will try them again and check your recommendations also.
Will let you know what I find out and thanks again for your time, I know this topic has been covered before.

Kerry

Have you checked the switch on your starter - the 2 thin red wires (red on a Dexta anyway!)?

If you short these together eg with a paper clip, then turn on the 'ignition' switch without pressing the lever, the starter should spin (without turning the engine). But make sure out of gear first!

Further to Ben's post.
The switch on top of the starter body is adjustable by loosening the lock nut and screwing the switch in or out to complete the electrical circuit to the solenoid. The purpose of this switch is to ensure that the starter pinion drive engages with the flywheel ring-gear, done by the mechanical action of the start lever, BEFORE the electrical connection causes the s/motor to turn. With the ignition on you can check whether current is reaching one side of the switch with your multimeter, which it should. If this is the case, adjust the switch in SMALL increments before trying again so as to complete the circuit.
You could, of course, first remove the two red wires and, with your meter set on ohms and the probes against both connectors, just press the ball in to complete the circuit and see if the switch itself is OK, and if so, re-adjust it. This can be done accurately with the output wire from the switch removed and, with the ignition on and somebody else holding the start lever firmly down, adjust the switch 'till a voltage reading is recorded on your multi-meter. Then screw the switch in a further quarter turn and lock it up.

Pavel

Peter, just for the hell of it I put a clamp meter on my FMD starter today and got a similar reading. But at initial start-up, for a milli-second, the in-rush current overcoming the inertia of mass and friction peaked at over 260amps -- and this on a well worn engine with the air temp. at 21C.
I well remember a test conducted at the old NIAE on a brand new MF 165 at 8 in the morning and with temps below freezing. The initial in-rush current was recorded at 391amps, dropping to just below 300 before ignition.
Either way it shows that good battery and wire connections are vitally important.

Pavel

Thanks everyone,

Engine is spinning now, did not have solinoid properly ground, also had a bad set of jumper cables which fooled me.

Need more help though, spun engine 4 different times for at least 30 seconds each time, still have not seen oil come to the engine block surface( engine has no head installed as yet). Also no oil coming to oil filter. If you stand at the front of engine it is turning clockwise , is that correct? Thought maybe the cable from battery connected to the wrong terminal (currently goes to the insulated terminal). Did try to prime oil pump during install, it kind of seaped out. Does anyone have any trick for priming oil pump Or maybe the engine is turning the wrong way?
Pavel, I adjusted the switch atop the starter, works now, I was touching the wires together together before, but took the switch apart and fixed it. This oil or lack of oil is disconcerting to say the least, hope some knows what is going on.


Thanks. Kerry


,.

Glad your starter now works, Kerry. As for your oil pressure problem, I have no experience of this on a Fordson -- but did once on a six cylinder car engine. This I sorted by removing the oil switch and injecting 2 containers of oil from an oil can. Maybe worth a try; it worked for me.

Pavel

Thanks Pavel,

I,ll try the oil injection into the pressure switch hole and might as well try putting oil into the hole atop the engine block also. but is my engine spinning the right direction....clockwise looking from the front?

On the pump side of the engine block There is a hole under the boss that supports the gearing running the pump. Not sure what goes there or if it gets a plug. Anyone know?

I don't have an oporators manuel and wondered if anyone could describe what the different positions of the light switch are supposed to do as you would be sitting in the tractor seat. Seems odd to have more than about two positions, main lights and a work light.

Thanks again for the help, I will get some pictures up at some point soon.

Kerry

The engine is turning the correct direction if the fan is drawing air rearwards through the radiator. IE have a look at the pitch on the fan blades - that will tell you which way it's meant to turn.

The Fordson engine rotates clock-wise when viewed from the front and pulleys end, as do the majority of multi-cylinder engines. Historically this was because, as most people are right handed, turning a starting handle with the right hand clockwise gave better performance. But apparently some twin cylinder John Deeres run anti-clock; as do quite a few stationary engines.

Pavel

Well that's good, it's turning the correct direction. Wonder where that oil pressure is?

What about that threaded hole in the block just under the drive boss for the injection pump gears? It must lead directly to the oil pump. Would that a good place to try priming the oil pump? I wll also try the hole on top of the block.

Thanks Kerry
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