New member, hydraulic issue

[Old66ford]

Hello, Im Craig, in Alberta, Canada. I recently inherited a Super Major complete with front end loader, snowblower and back blade.

I've used it a few times since bringing it to my place, and 2 weeks ago, I used the bucket to move a few things around, got off with to move some other stuff by hand, and when I got back on to use the back blade, the 3 pt hitch wouldn't go up. I moved the lever to the front end loader hydraulics, and they would try to slowly bounce up. I parked it, shut it off, to check fluid levels. All levels are good, and I have a repair manual ordered, but until then I was wondering what could cause a sudden loss of hydraulics in these tractors? The day I this happened it was -10C, and the previous week was -20C, and thought maybe ice was blocking the inlet screen?

I've been using this website as a guest and have learnt a lot so far, but figured I should just join. We just keep getting more snow as of right now, so I will be putting up a portable tarp shed if needed to work on the tractor/keep the snow off of it. It would be nice to have this running again to help clear the snow.

Thanks for the help, Craig

[origin]

Craig,

I have the same issue with mine, what it is, it the moisture in the rear end oil, solidifying and plugging up the rear pump filter.

What I have done to combat that, is put a oil pan heater mat on the rear end to heat up the oil before I start working the tractor. One thing to do before hand as well that helps is drain the rear end (40 liters of oil!) and put fresh TDH oil into it (Walmart has 20L pails for $49 IIRC) that will help flush out the moisture that has built up in the oil.

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello Craig
The Operator's Manual for the Super states that the oil in the rear axle should be changed every 12 months or every 1000 hours, whichever comes first. I spoke to the technical department at Morris oils here in the UK and they said that the reason for this is the build-up of condensation. That's what you are encountering. The thing is, who can afford to keep to this schedule?
Any chance of photos? Would be great to see the snow blower in action.
Best, Adrian.

[oehrick]

I think the critical missing word is probably 1000 "working" hours Adrian

Coming from a food industry machinery background we found it almost impossible to avoid breathing and subsequent condensation due to atmospheric pressure and temperature changes.

With a Major back end you can't reduce the vast dead air space, can't wholly seal to make airtight so the alternatives appear to be, a heater to keep gearbox above dew point, positive feed of dry Nitrogen gas to keep damp air displaced, finding a non emulsifying oil, move to the Atacama desert .

I'm still working on a low energy method for removal of water from oil wastes - you'll know when I succeed as there will be sealed international patents and all the Dow triple D's will suddenly move to one owner in Norfolk

There has to be a way to de emulsify oil without damage, maybe vacuum distillation rather than heat ??

[AdrianNPMajor]

Thanks for the correction, Rick.
I'm loving your analysis of the problem and the potential solutions. Anyone taking the de-emulsifying with heat route would be on their way to opening a fish and chip shop!
Could I, in the spirit of Major Dawlish from Monte Carlo or Bust, suggest dangling a large teabag filled with silica gel in the rear axle housing? Hang on a minute, I do believe I'm onto something here.
On a serious note, if left to stand, would the water eventually drop out of the emulsion? If so, could one have two charges of oil, one in use and the other being left to settle?
I end up taking my waste oil to my local garage where they burn it in their waste oil space heater. Haven't had any complaints about the water content putting the burner out. At least this way the oil gets a second use.
Best, Adrian.

[Old66ford]

Im really hoping it is just moisture plugging off the inlet screen, and was thinking once i get it warmed up and running, I'll drain it and put new oil in, and the oil thats in it does look good, so maybe i'll keep it and and see if any moisture settles out.

Origin, do you just have the mat oil pan heater on the bottom of the rear axle housing?

I will take pictures soon, once its running and stopped snowing and not -20. The snowblower will be a sight, its homemade and runs on the 3pt hitch, I have not seen it in action but I do remember by grandpa saying it worked quite well.

Im just waiting for a nice warmish weekend to do try thawing it out, and hopefully that works! If not, I guess I'll be digging deeper and checking the inlet screen.

Thanks, Craig

[Bensdexta]

...On a serious note, if left to stand, would the water eventually drop out of the emulsion? If so, could one have two charges of oil, one in use and the other being left to settle?

In July I took oil samples of both gearbox and rear axle of my Dexta and had them analysed by ALcontrol. Both oils had been in the tractor for over a year, although only done about 50 hrs. Tractor lives under cover in an unheated shed. Water content of Rear axle and Gearbox were 0.25% and 2.2% respectively. Both samples looked a dirty brown colour. I have kept a sealed sample of this oil in the house since then and sadly there is no sign of water settling out. It would be interesting to try centrifuging it.

At one time I worked in a laboratory which involved a carriage running on rails over a very long water tank. Problem: how to stop the steel rails rusting. Solution: pass a very low electrical current through the rails to warm them slightly above their surroundings, a fraction of a degree IIRC. This cured the problem; there were no electrical hazards etc.. I wonder if anyone has tried connecting a tractor up to a low voltage supply to pass a current from end to end and thus preventing condensation.??

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello Craig
If you need the tractor, I'd place a suitable receptacle under the rear axle and remove the drain plug. If she drains okay, it's a simple procedure to remove the plate holding the oil screen in place so you can inspect. If she doesn't drain, or drains in dribs and drabs, you have your answer. The ice blocking the filter screen, if this is the problem, is likely to be restricting the drain plug hole also. In this case, gingerly remove the inspection plate and let the cover, filter screen and oil drop into the receptacle. Clean filter and replace. Warm oil and refill rear transmission. The warm oil should melt any residual ice. Use tractor, then drain whilst everything is still warm ready for new oil if it's your intention to replace it.
Hello Ben
Interesting analysis you had done. Quite surprising how quickly the moisture builds up. Back when the tractors were built oil prices meant that this problem was easily solved - just stick to the maintenance schedule and replace the oil! Different world now.
Best, Adrian.

[Old66ford]

Adrian, where is the plate holding the oil screen in place mounted? I was thinking of using a herman nelson heater to warm up the back end, and try draining to see if its free flowing or full of moisture.

Thanks, Craig

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello Craig
The oil screen inspection plate is located under the rear axle housing between the rear wheels (just forward of the line of the rear axle shafts). The plate is held in place by four bolts. When you remove the bolts, the plate will drop down and the basket should come with it (ie it is not fixed in place). If it remains in place, just grasp it and pull.
The above procedure does require you to make a new gasket for the plate, but otherwise it's a pretty quick operation. Personally, I'd take this option rather than the heater, just out of curiosity. I'd want to know that the screen was clean so I could eliminate it as a cause of any future problems.
Best, Adrian.
ps With the plate off, you will expose two magnetic bolts. While you're at it, you could reach in and clean any filings off them.

[Stu_Fletch]

Hi Adrian the plates off mine at the minute changing the oil and cleaning the filter, I wasn't aware of the magnetic bolts, where are they roughly?

Thanks

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello Stu
I haven't been in here since the rebuild. I may be wrong about the ends of the magnetic bolts being accessible once the oil screen inspection plate is off. Sorry! The brain cells are obviously going!
Best, Adrian.

[Pavel]

Back in the 50s when I was a lad on a farm in the UK we needed at least one tractor to start in the morning during freezing weather so as to be able to feed stock. As well it was sometimes necessary to travel across fields for some miles to get to a village shop for bread and groceries. To make sure the little Fergie started we kept a lamp with a 150 watt bulb alight underneath it all night. The heat from this was enough to always allow us to start the tractor.

Pavel

[oehrick]

Thats interesting Pavel, I've heard the old steam traction engine owners who did haulage / recovery jobs 'at the drop of a hat' used to do the same, leave the engine with water in the boiler with the bulb in the firebox above a fire ready to be lit, apparently even in a frost if they had a washout plug or manhole off you could just see wisps of vapour above the water.

Of course if the bulb blew or the power went off you had to drain down (or light up) PDQ, a frozen firebox side looks like a quilt where the plates between the stays have bulged out, ice is far stronger than steam when it comes to expansion !!

[Bensdexta]

To make sure the little Fergie started we kept a lamp with a 150 watt bulb alight underneath it all night.

That might be enough to prevent condensation in the gearbox/axle?

[Stu_Fletch]

Adrian it's a good job you're here otherwise I wouldn't have spotted them ! I did think it was a bit odd not having one especially as there's not really a proper high pressure hydraulic filter.
I'll attach some photos so others can find them. They are 2 bolts just in front of the circular bottom plate holding the filter in place with the drain bung in the center.
For some reason it wont let me attach the modified pics so please use this link instead: http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/Stu_F ... e&sp=false


Fordson Major magnetic hydraulic sump bolt.


Fordson Major magnetic hydraulic sump bolt internal view. (The bottom of this pic is the front.)


Fordson Major one rear end magnetic hydraulic sump bolt removed (The top of this pic is the front of the tractor.)

Cheers

[AdrianNPMajor]

Great images, Stu. You've cleared up my uncertainty. Many thanks.
Best, Adrian.

[oehrick]

To make sure the little Fergie started we kept a lamp with a 150 watt bulb alight underneath it all night.

That might be enough to prevent condensation in the gearbox/axle?

Possibly Ben, but these days I'd be inclined to use a proper heater rather than a bulb(usually a potted wirewound resistor) I have a few here* either 110 or 240 volt, mounted on heatsinks as internal control cabinet heaters, what sort of wattage you'd need I don't know as the back casting is a huge heatsink (hence no oil cooler needed) and warm moist air only needs to hit something at dewpoint once to drop its load........

* I have them here as they didn't stop condensation in the equipment to which they were fitted and in some circumtances made it worse

[AdrianNPMajor]

Really informative discussion. Learning a lot. Seems like there's no obvious workable solution. Having said that, the old girls keep going without too much complaint.
Best, Adrian.

[oehrick]

My background has been food industry machinery, sawing, slicing and high pressure forming kit for meat / poultry / fish, bacon, cheese & deli products both fresh and frozen, as you may imagine hygiene is stringent, especially with foods where the next thing to touch the product is the customer's mouth with no cooking.

Most of the kit is stainless steel, anything up to 30 kW drives, various electric, air or hydraulic motors, gearboxes (if we can't use belts chains or open gears) cameras or laser sensors, serious computing power needing big contol enclosures,operating video screens and more safety interlocks than you can shake a stick at.

During a shift lots of heat is generated and lots of waste gets spread about and sticks, think hide or fish glues, first cleandown is to steam clean, then hit it with masses of cold water, the cooling sucks fog into anything which breathes and instantly condenses - hit with sanitiser and after a soak wash with lots of hot water, more fog, final cold water rinse and leave to marinate overnight.

Wake some poor s*d from the makers up when it doesn't start in the morning

Over the years (and this is where the relevance to the Major g/b lays) I have learned:-

If it has an air space inside you cannot seal it reliably, silicon sealer, O rings, gaskets and the like are good, really good, but as with Thermoses, they know when you start relying on them and bite you in the bum (and cabinet heaters tend to make things worse and cost a fortune to run)

Things like multipin plugs and sockets, fill the air gap with inert silicon grease, in one plant this totally cured the failure of about 3 out of 30 sensors a day (the dampness gave false readings although they were fine when dried out) - think trailer light sockets here

The bigger the airspace, the more water gets in each temperature cycle.

Positive pressurisation by dry gas works but is expensive, although not as expensive as the idiot who, to save on the cost of bottled gas, connected the factory airline instead, this was fine until the day the air cooler coil ruptured and overnight the cabinet filled up with water, about 2 cubic metres, thankfully the idiot responsible was the idiot who opened the door to see what was wrong, the tidal wave released washed him out to and over the loading dock, even more thankfully, his absence with a broken leg showed the owners how much this particular idiot was costing them

Put in a vent source away from the damp air (we tended to use roof voids) or through a dessicator - this is perhaps the most likely to help with a tractor, if we could fit a vent pipe somewhere that is a route for air to come in and out easily (so it isn't being sucked in through bearings, gearstick etc.) and have a cartridge on it which absorbs moisture, remembering to change or re activate the dessicant to keep it active, it might be possible to cure or at least reduce the problem and with the cost of oil these days, either preventing emulsification or finding some way of 'restoring' oil is becoming an attractive proposition.

Hope the potted history hasn't bored anyone too much but condensation based problems have been the bane of the last 30 odd years for me and very often the obvious answer isn't

Does anyone have a contact in the lubricants line ? It would be interesting to find out how much the water 'derates' oil cos one thing is sure, at least as far as my old girl is concerned, the only time she has had clean dry oil in her gearbox will be the day in April 1958 when they filled her up in the factory and perhaps a few weeks / months thereafter until the cold weather started and it doesn't look as if I'm going to wear her out

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello Rick
With the benefit of your specialised knowledge and experience, I'd say that there is no practical solution to this problem other than forking out over £100 every 12 months (or a 1000 working hours).
Either that, or make our machines pump emulsion!
Best, Adrian.

[Pavel]

You gentlemen [do we have any women/ladies contributing to these posts?] might like to Google and read "Reducing Gearbox Oil Contamination Levels". Whilst most, but not all, of the suggestions are not practical for our Fordsons, it makes thought provoking reading -- as do other articles from this mag.
Ricky may well find the first case study interesting as it deals with food processing.

Pavel

[Bensdexta]

Warming the gearbox/back axle slightly relative to surrounding surfaces should be an effective means of preventing internal condensation, should it not?

[oehrick]

Shame they didn't quantify what element of the contamination was water based Pavel

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... WU&cad=rja

Is the sort of canister I was thinking of

Still not much about on dewatering oil emulsions other than special polymers or bacteria although an interesting school experiment showing microwaving breaks the bonding more effectively than direct heating, I shall have to draw a bottle of porrige off 'Old Maudie' next time I pump it forward and experiment..........

Keeping the internal surfaces above dewpoint temperature has to help Ben but doesn't stop humidity getting in in summer.

[Old66ford]

Success!

While I was working outside, I had a herman nelson heater blowing on the rear of the tractor for 6 hours, and thawed it nicely. I drained all the oil, got a fair bit of water at the very beginning, and lots of slush when I was pouring it from my catch can into old pails. As it is still -20, I just felt up to the screen, and checked the magnets, and all felt good so I put the drain back in, topped it up with new, and fired her up. Hydraulics all worked great, used the back blade and cleaned up the yard and the bucket to push the snow further back. Got dark before I could dig out the snowblower or take decent pictures, but they are both on the agenda for the week after work.

Thanks everyone for you help and knowledge!

Craig