Uh Oh

[AdrianNPMajor]

In case you're wondering where all of this work is leading, this is how your tractor will sound with its newly rebuilt engine when you connect her up to your plough.
Best, Adrian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxaQlWlNVTw

[58vintage]

Hi Adrian,

I'd seen that video before didn't know it was you. Nice tsr102. What boards are on it? Lovely sound to the tractor.

That sounds a sensible idea whilst the tractor is split in 3.
One day you'll stop giving me good ideas on work to do and I'll get it back together. Lol.

James.

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi James
You'd already adopted a thorough approach so I thought I'd help you run with it!
Re the large O ring that seals the PTO tunnel (it sits on the flange facing the camera in first photo), I reused it as I couldn't easily lay my hands on a new one. I superglued it in place to stop it moving whilst I manoeuvred the PTO housing into place - the housing needs to go upwards and backwards at the same time (downwards and backwards, if you've got the gearbox upside down on the bench). I also applied some silicon gasket material to the O ring to make sure of a seal - this is the kind of job you don't want to do twice. You'll need to make a new paper gasket for the mating surfaces of the PTO housing and the gearbox - good idea to paint both surfaces with Wellseal.
To remove the seal inside the PTO housing, which is the object of the exercise, best to knock the stub PTO shaft and its bearings off their seats (see photos). You then have room to get behind the seal and extract it. The seal is double lipped, as it has to prevent passage of oil from both directions.
Best, Adrian.
ps Don't forget to do the second seal - the one that seals the final drive from the gearbox. This becomes accessible when you've split the gearbox away from the rear axle.

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[58vintage]

Thanks Adrian for the info it's always good to know what I'm up against from someone who has done it before. I'm having a full day on it today and dad's coming over for a nose and is bringing his set of block and tackle so I'll be able to convince him to help today.

[58vintage]

Stripped and new bits ordered for next day. All told she was in very good nick. Just the seal between the gearbox casing and backend looked a little suspect. Any luck I'll have her back together by Sunday. I've entered her and my new TS59 J in the local Ploughing match on 27th so better get a wiggle on.

[58vintage]

Hi All,

Well she's all back together and is oil water and fuel tight.
the gearbox and back end seals were much easier to do with the box upside down on the bench great call there Adrian thanks for that.
She starts and runs great sounds lovely, keeps the water temp about halfway through the blue section on the gauge and after fitting an axillary oil pressure gauge the thicker Morris oil is giving me a needle thickness over 40psi when cold and about 35 minimum when hot.

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi James
Everything looks spot on. No surprise really, considering your methodical approach.
One little tweak I would suggest - fit a thermostat that allows the engine to run hotter. Diesel engines combust most efficiently at water jacket temperatures at and above 200F. I run my engine with the needle halfway into the third sector of the gauge, which I estimate to be between 190F -200F. It loves it. The engine reaches operating temperature quickly and stays there happily all day pulling the plough in heavy land. As you can see from the videos I've posted, there's no hint of incomplete combustion. Exhaust gases are cooler, and no unburnt fuel to contaminate lubrication.
I know you are an expert in this area, so I think the following emoticon is appropriate!
Best, Adrian.

[peter2]

Hi Adrian,

fit a thermostat that allows the engine to run hotter.

what is the normal temperature for the thermostat and what would be a hotter one? Are the thermostates the same as in BMC engines (Mini e.g.)?

Peter

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi Peter
My NP Super Operators' Handbook states that 'the cooling system should be maintained at a temperature of 160F-190F (71C-88C).'
I favour the higher end of this range and little higher.
I forget now where I bought my thermostat. When rebuilding the engine I used various suppliers. I think it was either Silver Fox Tractor Spares or Dunlops.
I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question about the BMC thermostats. I'd be interested to learn.
Best, Adrian.

[58vintage]

Hi Adrian,
It's worth thinking about, I would want to be at the higher range there at the 88°C maybe 90°C. Don't know how much more than 90°C I'd want to go as in the very low pressure coolant circuits our engines run at that's getting close to the point that water starts to bubble.
James

[AdrianNPMajor]

Fair point James. I seem to have arrived at the point, more by luck than judgement , where the engine runs as hot as possible without the coolant creating vapour. I rarely have to top up the rad.
Are you all set for your ploughing match? And will it still go ahead? The land around here is heavy and I'm still waiting for the field I'm halfway through ploughing to dry out.
Any chance of some photos of your tractor?
Best, Adrian.

[58vintage]

In a modern system where it runs with pressure in the system I'd have no problem in running at almost 100°C as the pressure increase highers the boiling point.
Yes match is still on at the moment but we've had evil amounts of rain over the last 14 hrs. Stopped now but it's pretty wet about, it's going to be hard going. I managed to get her in the ground at a mates as his soil is mostly shale bank. Crap for arable farming but great for cleaning a plough quickly.

I keep promising them, I'll have to get a photo bucket account open and load them on.

[58vintage]

Hi Adrian,
You'll be pleased to know I've got the photos onto my laptop now so all i have to do is open a photo bucket account and I can post them here.

The match went really well tractor performed flawlessly and pulled the TS59 J effortlessly. It all ended up with me getting 3rd in the novice class so not to bad for my first match.

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello James
Looking forward to seeing your photos.
Pleased to hear that she performed flawlessly. Testament to your meticulous work.
Re the ploughing, please take one of these out of petty cash!
Best, Adrian.

[easy.start]

Evening folks, sorry to drag this 'thread' back to the original topic of PTO seals in the gearbox but, I have to fit new ones! I have the tractor split and have fitted new seals (output shaft, belt pulley, pedal cross shaft) and filled the gearbox with oil once more only to notice the following day there is a small amount of clean oil down in the tunnel where the PTO shaft locates Having spent a while reading everyones thoughts on these Pages, where is the best place to obtain the seals required? And is it really as difficult as some suggest?

[Stu_Fletch]

I ordered mine of eBay, there's a list on the wiki pages which list's the sizes you require I think I bought 2 for about £8, I'll try and find the sizes out later if you can't find them.
Cheers

[Brian]

The PTO housing seals are not the best to fit, one is fitted with the cup inwards to stop the oil from the gearbox escaping and the other fits with the cup towards the rear axle to stop that oil from getting to the gearbox. Over the years I have tried to fit the first one (or the twin version originally supplied), without the special tool, with limited success. It is very easy to curl the seal lip and loose the spring fitted on some seals.

The special tool was a cone that the seal slid up as it was tapped into place which ensured the lip did not curl. Henk did some drawings and made a tool some years ago but they may have been lost on one of the old sites. Henk may have the information still and post it again.

Use plenty of lubrication when fitting them.

[oehrick]

Probably not so relevant here but a friend of mine who was a hydraulics designer / manufacturer was a bugger for theiving disposable bic biro pen caps anywhere he went, on asking why he admitted that despite all the wonderful seal wrangling tooling around, he found the pocket clip part of these caps the absolute best at manipulating seal lips without damaging them, some taped onto rods in line or crossways for remote access, it's the crescent moon shape of them way the key feature along with 'em being plastic.

HTH someday

[AdrianNPMajor]

I think this is the one you need. [See link.] To be sure, have a measure up before ordering.
If you knock the stub shaft and its bearings off the bearing seats (see photos above - you need to remove the housing end plate), there's room to remove the old seal and to tap the new one into place. Having knocked the stub shaft back, the smaller diameter splined section of the stub shaft enters the aperture of the seal, so there is space between the shaft and seal, allowing the seal to be located without interference. Grease the shaft (before fitting the new seal) and the lips of the seal, then tap the shaft and its bearings back onto their seats. The shoulder on the shaft where the lips run will present itself to the lips of the seal correctly aligned as the bearings will already be located on their seats before the shoulder on the shaft contacts the lips.
Best, Adrian.

http://www.silverfoxtractorspares.com/f ... 5007-p.asp

[AdrianNPMajor]

Apologies. I posted a link to the wrong seal.
This is the correct one.
Best, Adrian.

http://www.silverfoxtractorspares.com/f ... 1444-p.asp

[easy.start]

Thank you for all the help folks and the link(s) Adrian I'll have a go this week as all it's done is rain here since about 1990.. Does it make the job any easier if the tractor is still split? I'm assuming it may be as then I don't need to get the PTO output shaft lined up with the female section?
Having watched your ploughing video Adrian here's one of me using the not so old Ford 2000. Once the Major's back together I'll get a video of that too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62bd4B3mND4

[AdrianNPMajor]

You can retract and replace the PTO shaft easily with the tractor still together.
Just rotate the shaft to get it to engage with the splines on the stub shaft.
Very neat ploughing!
Best, Adrian.

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[Dandy Dave]

Look at all the fun I been missing. I updated with a better computer that actually stays on this site instead of kicking off all the time. Say, You may just as well put some paint on that old girl while you are at it. Dandy Dave!

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi Dave
Still humming and harring over the paint job!
How are things in your neck of the woods? Did you have any problems during the recent snow storm? It looked pretty awesome on the TV bulletins. Wonder if you used the Major to do any clearing and towing.
Best, Adrian.

[Dandy Dave]

We have had very little snow here in my area so far this winter. South of us got quite a bit more. I don't use my FPM in the snow, just York raking and topping in good weather. I did run her on my generator several years ago to keep the house lit during a major Ice storm that took down a lot of trees and electric poles and wires with it. We were out for ten days and the FPM did well keeping things working. Dandy Dave!