Uh Oh

[58vintage]

So after doing all the work on the FPM bar painting I thought I'd give her a little road run down the get my new 6 ft topper about 45 mins of driving on it, checking all fluids before I left. Just as I pull into the yard the FPM turns into a steam train with coolant poring out of the overflow beneath the radiator cap. So I quickly park the FPM up and shut it down. As I climb off I can hear the water bubbling in the block and there is even steam bubbling out of the rubber injector seals. I cannot feel any water when I stick my finger in the radiator filler also cannot feel any water when I squeeze the bottom hose. There is however some oil round the radiator cap which wasn't there before. What do people think, head gasket gone or just boiled? How well do these old fordson engines cope with being cooked?
Before anyone asks the tractor wasn't being driven hard only 1200 rpm as if it was running a 540 implement. New temp gauge was fitted before it left and didn't go out of the normal operating band at all.

[oehrick]

Did you have a pressurised rad cap on ? if so you might want to check if the oil has gone milky, in which case you might have lost a liner sealing O ring.

I have been strongly warned by numerous folk not to use the pressurised caps on these as the old O rings go gooey.

No water in the oil and you may well get away with it, I do hope so.

[58vintage]

Did you have a pressurised rad cap on ? if so you might want to check if the oil has gone milky, in which case you might have lost a liner sealing O ring.

I have been strongly warned by numerous folk not to use the pressurised caps on these as the old O rings go gooey.

No water in the oil and you may well get away with it, I do hope so.

No pressure cap fitted, got to be honest the cap looks original or if not a very old replacement. I Checked the oil filler and there was no mayo there or on the dipstick.

[AdrianNPMajor]

Under these circumstances I'd remove the cylinder head.
Best, Adrian.

[Pavel]

It is quite possible that the air movement from the fan blades may have blown coolant onto the injectors with the heat of the cyl. head making it bubble.
Any 'froffy coffee' will only form after the engine and oil have cooled. Check the oil level to see if it has risen indicating water in the sump caused by a leaking cyl. head gasket or broken liner O ring.
The temperature sender bulb only records correctly if water is covering it. From your description the thermostat is a likely cause. Try removing and immersing it in boiling water to see if it opens to allow circulation.

Pavel

[58vintage]

Thanks Gents going to pull the head off and have a look what's happened. Will also check the thermostat out.

[oehrick]

I'd check the thermostat first, unless you like head work that is

[58vintage]

I'd check the thermostat first, unless you like head work that is

I'm strange I don't mind doing stuff like that. Lol
Also I would mind seeing if anything has been damaged internally as it got unbelievably hot.

[oehrick]

Fair dues if you are still exploring the internals I'd be checking thermostat and pump impeller plus hoses for any indication of internal collapse or flow restriction as the E1A diesels are if anything overcooled for UK conditions - and seem more susceptible to frost damage than being cooked.

Thereafter head gasket compression leak is the obvious, and hopefully you have not been tinkering with the injection pump calibration screw.

I'll beat Adrian to it - photos of what you find are always eagerly awaited.

Happy hunting and hope its not an expensive one.

[58vintage]

Fair dues if you are still exploring the internals I'd be checking thermostat and pump impeller plus hoses for any indication of internal collapse or flow restriction as the E1A diesels are if anything overcooled for UK conditions - and seem more susceptible to frost damage than being cooked.

Thereafter head gasket compression leak is the obvious, and hopefully you have not been tinkering with the injection pump calibration screw.

I'll beat Adrian to it - photos of what you find are always eagerly awaited.

Happy hunting and hope its not an expensive one.

Thanks I hope so to.

I'll sort some pics of what I find.

Towed her into my barn to get ready to have a look. Now its cooled and sat for a day I can confirm that there is no mayo in the sump or round the oil filler cap so with any luck I haven't lost a liner O ring. The water pump looks quite good but I may change it anyway for piece of mind. I'm going to send the radiator off to be flow tested in case it's half full of silt or something.
I know the pump hasn't been messed about with as I'm a director of one of the biggest diesel specialists in the UK. We still have all the test benches etc to run these pumps up etc and the boys checked the pump and injectors for when I first got the tractor.

I was wondering if I've had the rubber seal in the head fail and that's how oil has gotten into the radiator? Or it could be head gasket proper.

I'm interested to see what's inside once the head is off.

Thanks,

James

[oehrick]

Mine has had oily water in the rad for donkeys years, never gets any worse, the only problem has been premature softening of the hoses, perhaps I've a nasty surprise waiting for me one day .

Sounds like you are well placed for fuel system issues - I'd been watching a couple of injector testers on ebay but more money than I could justify.

Glad you've somewhere under cover to work

[58vintage]

Mine has had oily water in the rad for donkeys years, never gets any worse, the only problem has been premature softening of the hoses, perhaps I've a nasty surprise waiting for me one day .

Sounds like you are well placed for fuel system issues - I'd been watching a couple of injector testers on ebay but more money than I could justify.

Glad you've somewhere under cover to work

Me to as the weather we are having in south wales at the moment i wouldn't like to be working on it outside. lol

You might not need a full injector tester maybe just a old injector pop tester would enable you to check spray patterns and check for dribbling nozzles etc. One of those would be a lot cheaper.

The Radiator is off and went away to be flow tested yesterday and i decided to change the water pump anyway so a new one is on its way, just got to pull the head off tonight and have a peek inside and check the thermostat. plus a few snaps of what i find.

Regards,
James

[Brian]

Hi James,

Highly unlikely that the "O" ring in the head would have failed, it is quite a massive square section seal and the pressure is fairly low. I would suspect a head gasket failure. The Power Major did give problems with head gaskets back in the day but that was usually down to the thin metal gasket that was being used at the time, also the flat topped liners. Later tractors had a spigoted liner and a copper asbestos gasket.

When you get the head off carefully check that the liners protrude from the block by 0.002" to 0.004". Any more and the gasket will not seal the waterways and any less and the gasket will not be nipped around the liner tops and will blow.

Also carefully check the head gasket surface on the head for warping. They will do this and will have to be skimmed, again this was common back in the day.

The gasket you will get to refit will usually be the later "Klinger" type. This is perfectly OK for these engines, I even fitted one on my 1952 when I overhauled the engine.

[58vintage]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the info i'll definitly check the liners protrude the correct amount once i get the head off. Im guessing dependant on if its over or under the tolorance you either take the liner spacers out or add extra ones under the liners. According to my serial number/engine number my power major is the 750th off the production line so i would guess that i have the earlier design engine that you are on about. I guess if im taking the head off i'd be better off changing the gasket anyway.

Best Regards,

James.

[58vintage]

Only had time last night to get the head off. Had a quick peek in and all looks pretty good. I cannot see any soot or water marks leaking out from the bores or galleries, but a more detailed check tonight, including how far the liners protrude.

Out of interest I can get either a metal gasket as was on the engine or the copper upgraded one. Is there anything stopping me putting the later upgraded on on my engine?

Regards,

James

[Brian]

The thin metal gasket was deleted in 1959 so it would be a copper asbestosone or the "Klinger" type. The Klinger is the far better gasket IMHO.

[58vintage]

The thin metal gasket was deleted in 1959 so it would be a copper asbestosone or the "Klinger" type. The Klinger is the far better gasket IMHO.

I can get one marked metal gasket and is black and one marked copper gasket and is copper coloured. To be safe I'm better getting the copper coloured on then.

[58vintage]

On closer inspection head gasket has gone and sump half full of blacky grey mayo how when I pulled the rocker cover off I didn't see any on the rockers I don't know. Just to check it wasn't a liner seal I filled the block with water and observed the level which hasn't dropped so that must leave the head as the problem. Looks like I'll be sending the head for checking/skim then.

[AdrianNPMajor]

Skimming the head is a good idea. While you're at it, new valves (+ reground seats), guides and springs would make sense too. Thing is, though, having done the top of the engine, it may show up wear in the lower part of the engine, but you can address any issues arising there, if there are any, at a later stage. On this point, what kind of oil pressure are/were you getting?
Best, Adrian.

[58vintage]

I was thinking of putting some new bits in the head to.

Oil pressure is good enough to keep the power majors oil light off all the time.
I was wondering though as I'm already going this far that I might as well rebuild the bottom end to. What do people think?

[Brian]

My attitude would be if it is head gasket then that is as far as you go. The thin metal gasket was deleted in 1959 after about 8 months of use because of all the problems of blowing. If yours has done 50 years I do not think you will get it under the warranty. Checking head surface and doing the valves is where I would stop if you have noticed no other problems.

If you want to go in further then in my opinion it is a full engine strip down with the engine out. It is not just a case of fitting new bearings at this sort of age, it will be possibly regrinding or replacing the crank and putting in a new clutch.

It is easier to work on and clean up with the engine out too.

[58vintage]

You mean to say that it wasn't sold originally with a transferable 57 year warranty. That's is I'm ringing my solicitor. Lol

That's what's stopped me so far Brian. I've always tried to be more, if it's not broken don't fix it. But with a good amount of the engine coming apart/already apart I wondered about going the whole 9 yards. I noticed a full kit, bearings, shells, liners etc etc etc was quite reasonable. However didn't look at the price of a crank re-grind.
Might fully recon the head then and leave it at that.

Thanks,
James.

[58vintage]

Head back from the workshop. The guy said he had to take 12 thousandths off the surface so she wasn't that straight.

On further closer inspection I've also found how all the water went so quickly as I thought it all happened a bit quick to be just the gasket. Whilst checking the liner protrusions all were perfect apart from number 4 which has dropped. So I'm now looking at changing at least 1 liner.
Starting to wonder about biting the bullet and doing a full rebuild with a new crank the whole 9 yards.
What do people think?

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hello James
Rebuild the engine. That's what I would do. These tractors are worth the investment, which isn't huge, if you don't count your own time. Once the engine is rebuilt, your Major will be revitalised. The engine note will have a 'crack' to it, and you'll have tractor that can take on any job it was designed for operating at full strength.
If you need any advice along the way, you have come to the right place. The expert team and members are very knowledgeable and couldn't be more helpful.
Best, Adrian.

[oehrick]

Head back from the workshop. The guy said he had to take 12 thousandths off the surface so she wasn't that straight.

How far out is the block surface ? (never heard anyone in the head skimming business ask this, or if they do then a steel rule across is probably as accurate as the owner can check it

Have not tried it on a Fordson head but one of my S1 Landrover heads went into Plumsteads in Norwich for a sparkplug Helicoil so I asked for a check on the rest, the 'old man' was a decent sort and when I got a bit worried that it was a few thou dished over its length, he taught me a valuable and free lesson, clamped one end on a block, ran the dti along the surface plate showing the dish and rise in the now cantilevered head and left it registering on the free end, " just lean gently on that end" he said, I did, it was a tenths reading DTI and went off the scale "now think how much force the headbolts apply" "a few tens of thous will make no difference, it only needs skimming if there is corrosion or damage to the combustion, oil or coolant sealing surfaces"

Not saying don't do a decent job but you can bet your bottom dollar that in India or Africa or other low tech country, a badly cut or corroded head would have been brought back to health with file, scraper, bit of plate glass and maybe a bit of a rub with carborundum - no surface grinders out there and in many parts of the UK back in the day, quite possibly fewer now in the UK than then