1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

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AXEMAN78
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1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Hi all, been a while since a last post but spent a few hours with the spanners on my 1963 NP Super Major, but perhaps need a bit of advice from some of you with quite a lot of experience of Major gearboxes.....

after curing a few minor faults, charging, starting and instrument issues, I decided to book my tractor in to local vintage show, but noticed on the 6 mile drive there the bellhousing and gearbox was getting fairly hot to the point you couldn't hold your hand against it, so once back in the shed, she was split, thinking clutch, but the clutch looked in very good condition so investigated further and pulled the primary box out, discovering that the input shaft had welded itself together at the needle roller bearing join and the gears both sides had been blued by the heat of the friction between the shafts. A replacement complete box was sourced and duly re-fitted, after a good inspection as a matter of course. the handbrake was measured and found to within tolerance of manual specified dimensions and the plates both stationary and revolving looked good. so after the rebuild a few jobs around the yard she seemed ok, but after a 5 mile run yesterday the section of gearbox casting behind the pto blanking plate and handbrake lever was getting warm but not hot..... is there something I've missed somewhere regarding the handbrake?? or how warm should the gearbox get?? the handbrake had the last 3 teeth ground off as per Brians recommendations and with the handbrake released I can push the tractor easily by hand so I don't think the plates are binding..


Any help or advice greatly received

thanks in advance

Paul

PS what is the proper bolt size and length for the vertical bolts holding the a-frame to the front axle? the ones that are in are tight but there is play between the axle and a-frame.

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Hello Paul
The viscosity of the oil in the gearbox produces friction, which in turn produces heat.
There's a lot of teeth in the gearbox creating drag.
An hour into ploughing I wouldn't want to place the palm of my hand on the wall of the gearbox.
I've got Morris AG90 in my gearbox. Which grade of oil have you used?
Best, Adrian. :thumbs:

AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the reply, I too used Morris AG90 in the gearbox after rebuild. i don't know what grade was in there before but after the first outing to the show but it was very very thin, was a little tacky but didn't smell burnt like it had been boiled. Now you've said about your's being very hot after an hours ploughing, maybe i haven't much to worry about after 5 miles of hilly Lancashire roads??

Still a bit of a newbie to the joys of tractor ownership but welcome thoughts and advice

Paul

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

From the information you have provided you can put your mind at rest.
The HP produced at the flywheel is higher than the HP available at the drawbar. One of the places where that HP gets lost along the way is the gearbox. It takes work to stir that thick oil around, and the energy lost, or rather diverted, manifests itself in the heat that you are feeling on the wall of the gearbox.
Imagine all the work that went through the gearbox during your five-mile jaunt up hill and down dale.
By the way .....
:needpics:
Best, Adrian. :thumbs:

Brian
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by Brian »

1963 Supers should have Multiuse, 20/30W in gearbox and rear axle. :nono: :run:
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Hello Brian
What is the fundamental difference between the Diesel Major/Power Major and Super gearboxes and rear axles that caused Ford to change the oil specification?
I know the hydraulics, which are not the subject of this discussion, are different on the Super, with different oil gallery configurations, but I find in practice that the thicker oil in the rear axle works well even in this regard. Personally, I'm wary of using thinner oil to lubricate heavy duty meshing gears.
Best, Adrian. :thumbs:

AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Thanks again for your replies Adrian and Brian, Sorry if it's been a bit of a dumb question, next time I'm down the shed i'll get a few pics of the old (welded together) input shaft) Though I'm a bit like you Adrian, as all the tractors are basically the same in a fundamental kind of view that 90's would have been at home in the gearbox and backend.

Would the change of oil make a difference to the heat produced Brian??

Thanks again

Paul

blackbob
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by blackbob »

Thicker oil will cause more drag and hence absorb more power - look at the trend for car diesel engines to use 5W30, which is not much thicker than diesel! And car gearboxes use pretty thin stuff too, including ATF which is basically hydraulic oil. As you said Adrian, absorbed power ends up as heat :idea:

It isn't the thickness of modern oils which prevents wear, it's all the additives in it; and if Ford changed their specification for oil in the 1960's I would guess it was not because they had re-designed components, but just because they found then-new 'Universal' oil was better?
1440276 - 1957 - working
1335674 - err - one day..
Claeys combine M103 - 1963 703129 - working
Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

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Brian
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by Brian »

Ford changed the oil specification for gear boxes and rear axles back in 1959 for the whole Major range from 1951. Nobody reads the spec sheet or handbook though and that was true back in the day. :cry: :cry: (The oil specification from Ford are in the post above this forum).

Most users never bother to change gear box and rear axle oils and you will find some Majors have the same oil in that they left the factory with in 1953.

90W oil in a Super hydraulic system is like using treacle and forcing it through 0.05 mm porting is increasing heat, slowing down lifts, using up HP, increasing wear and lift problems.

20/30W lubricates just as well as 90W on the gears and bearings, possibly better in cold conditions, it will increase the "Fordson Clatter" though.

At one time, back in the days of the first Dexta, for a short while Ford were recommending 140W oil in the hydraulics!! :yikes: :yikes: That was very quickly changed to 20/30W.

My Nuffield uses 20/30W, they changed from AG90W around 1959 in all transmissions. Fergusons were using 50W in their rear axles from day 1
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AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Thanks for the oil info Brian and your thoughts Bob too, so from what your saying if I use thinner oil, there less resistance and drag, therefore less heat build up and possibly gain a couple of lost horses....

Paul

Brian
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by Brian »

That is true Paul but oil is very expensive. In the gearbox the 90W you have in there will do the job but you will find things get a bit warm, that is really no problem the whole transmission gets quite hot when in work, it was useful to keep you warm in the days of no cabs, just sacks draped over the knees.

The problem with 90W oil is in the hydraulic system. If you listen to the engine on a cold day when you first start you will hear how it pulls down when you take your foot off the clutch and put the hydraulics in gear. From a very young age I was always taught to put the clutch down before using the starter and still do today with any vehicle I drive with a clutch.

If you can push her, therefore no drag from handbrake, no slipping clutch, no failed bearings and no bits in the drain plug I would be 90% sure she is OK (without seeing and driving her).
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AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Thanks for the info Brian, maybe I should look at changing the backend oil then, as yes since rebuild you do notice that when you lift the clutch with the pto engaged it did pull her down a little, but less noticeable after she's worked abit and got thoroughly warmed up.

It's also good reassurance that you think all's ok, and not much to worry about,

thanks again

Paul

AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Here you go Adrian, a pic, :D Well, she had her first big run out at weekend after the gearbox rebuild, a couple of oil leaks but noticed that the high - low selector feels to get tight and hard to move after about an hour an half on the road, any ideas guys??

Image

blackbob
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by blackbob »

Wow that looks smart :clap: Those big radial tyres (what size are they?) are maybe not authentic for a 1960's tractor but they make it look powerful and capable of hard work.
1440276 - 1957 - working
1335674 - err - one day..
Claeys combine M103 - 1963 703129 - working
Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

The Fordson Tractor Pages. Built to be relied on.

AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Hi Bob, thanks for the comment :beer: the tyres that are on her now are how she came, 7.50's up front and 16.9 x 30's or whatever there metric equivalent is on the rear, might not be standard issue for a 63 super but like you say makes her look a bit beastly.

still trying to get my head round the hi-lo problem, going to head off down to the yard and take the selector cover plate off the side of the box for a look inside and see if anything looks amiss :?

Paul

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Hello Paul
Very nice tractor indeed. Puts mine to shame! :(
Re your Hi-Low stiff gear shift, I occasionally get this after serious hard work, by which time the gearbox and rear axle oils are well and truly up to operating temperature. Everything is hot, given the amount of work that has gone through the oil - even our AG90 is very thin by this stage. An hour-and-a-half on the road would have raised your oil up to operating temperature, meaning that all metal parts of the gearbox have expanded. My guess is that this is the cause of the resistance encountered.
Just got back from ploughing, and coming home in sixth gear (third hi-box) I got the usual gear clatter at low revs, but louder, due to the thin oil not having the same damping effect. Tomorrow morning I'll head off in the same gear and rev range and the clatter will be muted.
In conclusion, the Major's gearbox is no modern synchromesh unit. It's basic but bomb-proof.
Those are my thoughts and observations for what they are worth.
Best, Adrian. :thumbs:

AXEMAN78
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AXEMAN78 »

Cheers Adrian, someone over time spent a bit of money on her, and retained the original tinwork but didn't remove all the character out of her to a proper concours job, well I had a look back in the gearbox through the selector plate but nothing seems amiss with the hi-lo, but if your's gets a bit sticky when it's a bit warm then maybe I shouldn't be too concerned. To be honest I only had her over just 12 months so still learning the traits of on old major :D

easy.start
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by easy.start »

So..... Having read this 'thread' and others regarding oil spec for my 1955 Major I've just purchased SAE 30 oil for the gearbox and rear axle. I mentioned previously in another discussion regarding the dreaded transmission brake the gearbox casing was getting hot :help: As Brian confirmed when viewing a photo, my transmission brake did look suspect but another factor leading to this heat was the SAE 90 I'd bought, thinking I was doing the right thing :eyes: So, if anyone wants 60 litres of used once or twice SAE 90 let me know :mrgreen:
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AdrianNPMajor
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Hi Easy Start
Press the palms of your hands together as hard as you can, then rub them up and down on a count of five.
Best, Adrian. :thumbs:

RH
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by RH »

Very interesting thread, this.
Axman and Adrian,
I'm not sure altogether if the wheels are not standard for a Super, depending on where it spent its life.
Over here they seemed to come with that size fitted, (Canada) and I wonder if any went out back home with that size as well? Maybe not standard, but optional perhaps?
Brian will know. :-)
If I ever find a Ransomes plough for mine, I'll be looking for 12 -36's though!

Best regards,
Richard.

peter2
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by peter2 »

Hi,

my 1963 Super Major also has the 16.9-30 tyres. Image
They are listed in the parts catalogue as option. Maybe they were standard in some countries or better for special purposes?

Peter
1963 Super Major

blackbob
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by blackbob »

Peter are those some sort of rings welded to your rims, for fitting dual or cage wheels? Because they don't look standard either?

Yes I would think bigger wheels were an option, look at the tractor nearest the camera in the top photo here:

Image
1440276 - 1957 - working
1335674 - err - one day..
Claeys combine M103 - 1963 703129 - working
Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

The Fordson Tractor Pages. Built to be relied on.

easy.start
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by easy.start »

Well, I've now filled the tractor with straight 30 oil and all seems to be exactly the same :eyes: The gearbox gets just as hot and I haven't noticed any noticeable difference in the speed of the hydraulics, not that I was too concerned as they appeared to work well anyway.
One thing I have noticed however (when replacing a halfshaft seal) is that both rear wheels put up a fair bit of resistance when attempting to rotate them (when the tractor's jacked up) :scratchhead: Once the tractors warmed up (and oil) they rotate easily. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it common with Majors?
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peter2
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Re: 1963 NP Super MAjor Gearbox problems

Post by peter2 »

Hi,
blackbob wrote:Peter are those some sort of rings welded to your rims, for fitting dual or cage wheels? Because they don't look standard either?
I think so, yes. I never saw this rings elsewhere so one of the unknown former owners must have welded them.
I thought about cutting them out, because water stays behind this rings if there is no hole in the lower position but it seemed difficult not to damage the rim.

Peter
1963 Super Major

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