fordson Super Major starting issues

[flashdognz]

Hi, I have a ford super major and it has been a super starter and runner for the 5 years I have owned her...until now.
The last couple of times I used her she was having rev/power problems. I had to really pull the throttle to get her to run at all. Sounded like she was starved of something. I did happen to run out of Diesel at the same time which might have complicated trouble shooting. I did bleed her fuel line and got her running again. However she won't start now.

My latest trouble shooting has been to ensure the fuel is fully bleed of air. I have done this right through the bleed bolts in the fuel filter, through to the injector, and tested by turning her over with the 4 of the top injector lines to the cylinder's loosened off. This prooved to me that there were no air blocks as I can see fuel coming out of the 4 lines at the top. And with everything reconnected how it should be, I get really good white smoke out of the exhaust and the odd fire, but no starting.

So my next step was to check the air filter. This is the first time I have tackled this and it seemed pretty gunged up with a mix of oil from the pan and 50 years of dirt and foreign matter. So I have cleaned the gause up and it is now drying.

In the mean time I had a go at starting the tractor up, as a test, without the filter on at all. She certainly does sound a little more promising. Lots of white smoke, and the odd fire and puff of black smoke. But no starting.

While I wait for the battery to charge again, I thought I would post this and see what anyone thought.

One last thing. While figuring out where the bleed nuts were on the injector, I accidentally played with what I think is the injector govenor bolt. Now I am not sure where this should be as a default so I can at least be sure that it is not interfering with the starting. BTW I know very very little about all this, I am making it up as I go, and by reading this fabulous forum.

Any help would be fantastic.

Thanks

Heath.

[j.myatt]

Check the rack is free

[Brian]

White smoke from the exhaust means you are getting fuel up to the cylinders so your problem is unlikely to be fuel problem. Could most likely be timing.

Does your tractor have a Minimec pump or a vacuum governed one?

Turn the engine over by hand until the marks on the pump drive line up, then open the timing window on the sump and check where the marks line up with the mark on the sump.

The fibre drive pad on the pump can wear and the drive ket on the pump shaft can shear.

[flashdognz]

Thanks Brian,
I had not been thinking the timing would be an issue, so thanks for the guidance.
I'll let you know how I get on.

I guess through deduction if fuel and air are getting through, then timing is the next cab off the rank.
This would account for steady decline in power and not firing consistently.

Again thanks, and I'll let you know how I get on.

I still don't know what I have done with the injector govenor, but if I get it started I guess I can experiment with that then and learn.

[Brian]

What did you "adjust" ? The screw and locknut on the rear of the pump (vacuum governed)? A similar one on the top of a Minimec?

They should not prevent her starting.

[flashdognz]

The adjustment I made was to very thin bolt with a lock nut, on top of the injector as you described. Its really good to know I can leave that alone and fine re-adjust that later.

[flashdognz]

I am having difficulty figuring out how to manually turn the engine over. I am guessing I need to try and get to the front of the engine block and turn the flywheel manually? There is a lot of stuff in the way at the front like the radiator etc. But this is the best way aye? I though of trying to just push the tractor in gear, however the front forks are anchoring the tractor to the ground, right where she stopped last.

What I did instead was to 'play' with the timing by a few degrees each way from where it was. Still just lots of white smoke. When the tractor last ran, the power quickly, but gradually died away in a matter of about 15 minutes operating time.

[flashdognz]

I have been retracing the events leading up to her not Starting. I am pretty sure I ran out of fuel just before the trouble with loosing power. So now I am thinking that even though I have bled the fuel lines, I am thinking the filters may just be gumed up enough to prevent enough flow/presure to get her started. Whilst bleeding the fuel using the manual lifter primer lever, it took a lot more pumps (like 50 pumps of the thumb) to get the fuel up to the main fuel filter.

So I am thinking perhaps by running her dry, more crap than normal came from the tank into the filters.

I will investigate tomorrow.

Another thought I had was just to try squirting some starting fluid into the air intake. WD40 or Ether perhaps? just to help diagnose whats going on.

[Brian]

If you are certain that you have no problem with the timing DO NOT ADJUST IT. If the marks all line up then it is OK. The way to turn the engine is to flick it over on the starter until the clamp bolt on the drive coupling is just about in the position as shown in the third picture, then open the timing window and turn with a large screw driver in the ring gear teeth.

You will need to start checking the flow from the tank by removing the pipe from the lift pump and seeing if you have a strong flow of diesel. There is a filter in the fuel tap that can block. When you are sure that is OK then change all your other filters. You can remove them and try to start her if you are only going to run for a short time for testing.

The screw you moved is the "black smoke" screw, you will let lots of black smoke escape via the exhaust pipe,

[fenhayman]

When you ran out of fuel all the dirt in the fuel tank would have been sucked onto the in-tank gauze/filter slowing the flow of fuel.
A quick way to clear the filter is as follows:
Turn the tap under the fuel tank off and disconnect the fuel pipe. Take a bicycle air pump and flexible connector. Shorten the connector leaving about 1/2 inch of rubber. Open the fuel tap and push the short end of the connector into the fuel tap outlet and pump fast. The dirt will be blown off the filter and temporarily clear it.Turn off tap once you have a full flow and reconnect fuel pipe.
Always kept pump and short connector in my toolbox.

[flashdognz]

Thank you both. I am learning lots of new tricks. Thats what I love about this 'older' tractor. Its simple enough I have a chance to figure her out. My 'playing' with the timing while guessing had only retarded it by 1 degree. So I have now re-adjusted the timing back to 23 deg where she started. Thanks Brian, I kind of guessed the levering in the sump inspection window was probably the thing to do. The first time seemed a bit 'magic' while turning the teeth and suddenly finding the degree marks. Woahhh whooo!

So next thing was to try the bicycle pump trick. When I first removed the fuel line coming out of the tank tap, the fuel trickled out reasonably well, but it didn't gush. So I put the bicycle pump on it and pumped vigorously. Then the fuel 'gushed' a bit better. I then bled the fuel line again up through to the filter. When I finish bleeding the outgoing bleed nut on the filter there seems to be a reasonable amount of pressure and the fuel bulb is nice and full.

However, still no start (lots of good cranking and smoke)

So I am thinking some dirt may have got through to the injectors or something. When the tractor slowly petered out it did it like it was slowly being stranggled over about 15 minutes.

I got brave/stupid and decided to have a look in the fuel filter bulb. OMG it was horrorific. It was like something had died in there and disintegrated. Time for a new filter. I should have taken a photo, but it was like the bottom of a river, very sludgie. I guess it was trying to do its job, who knows what this maintenance will do to help.

If the injectors are dirty I imagine this fits my symptoms. The dirt would have gradually stopped the fuel misting properly, but still allows the fuel to get through to generate smoke?

At this stage I will change the fuel filter out and do what I can to clean the fuel tank. Then retest. If I still have problems I will then move onto getting the injectors checked.

[Brian]

Clean the filters then try a little Easy Start (ether) and see if she fires up. You may find that once she has run she will be OK.

White smoke is unburt fuel in the cylinders, it may be the injectors are stuck and not spraying correctly, you could also remove them, put them on an injection pipe WITH THE SPRAY POINTING AWAY FROM ANY BARE FLESH/HANDS/FINGERS ETC. and see if they spray or squirt. I am shouting to make it clear that you do not get spray on bare flesh because it will easily penetrate it. The cure is then either amputation or, if you are a long way from the doctor or hospital, possible death. The spray only has to drift onto the skin.

You may need to take the injectors to your local diesel shop for attention and resetting on a test rig.

[flashdognz]

Great news tonight, She is starting again. WIth a new fuel filter I had a go at starting her normally and she made some promising firing noises but didn't quite start. So I then added some squirts of ether into the air intake she came to life. Initially I had to keep tapping on the ether injection to keep her idling for the first 3-5 minutes. Then eventually she warmed up and could idle by herself without stalling. After warming her up and then turning her off I could also start her without the aid of ether. So GOOD and GOOD.

This is a major step forward. Thank you Brian and Fenhayman for your guidance and wisdom!

I have uploaded some videos so you can hear the outcome.

https://youtu.be/PxsBGQZbEfI

https://youtu.be/BHuCa9XxsfI

So I still have a problem that the throttle doesn't do anything, which I assume must be the injector pump. Brian you mentioned a fibre pad that could wear. Was that for the Simms pump that I have? And does that mean it is a vacuum activated control?

Thanks for everything, much appreciated, Heath.

[blackbob]

Your videos are so frustrating.... Take the camera round and show us the injection pump, so we can see what type it is! Please!

Although I don't think I can see any linkage on the inlet manifold, so it's probably a later one, like Brian's pic in post#3

By the way it is idling at a quite slow speed, especially in the first video, it's not surprising it wouldn't start from cold - did you find the excess-fuel button?

And it looks a decent loader - but what's the point of the red-painted frame? It might protect you a little from falling bales, but wouldn't be any good in a rollover situation..

[Brian]

That will be a Minimec pump, you need to check the throttle rod is actually working the pump lever. If it is you have a governor fault in the pump itself.

Just a thought, have you ever changed the oil in the pump? Should be changed every time you change the engine oil and it is the same oil. May be worth draining it out and refilling with Automatic Transmission Fluid then run her around for a while before draining and putting the correct oil back. It takes 1/3rd of a pint so it will be quite cheap to do. The oil filler and level are marked in the first picture, the drain is underneath the housing. Be careful not to overtighten the plugs, it is an aluminium housing and it is easy to damage the threads.

Add the rest of the can of ATF to the diesel and this will clean up the system and help free off any injector or pump problems.

If you are very careful, take the side plate off the pump and check that your rack is free. The rack is the bit that moves the pumping elements and increases/decreases the fuel to the injectors. You should be able to get a screw driver and lever it carefully backwards and forwards. The pump must be very clean and you must not get dirt into it. A good drop of ATF sloshed around in there will be a great help.

If none of this works, you will have to take the pump off and to a repair specialist.

[flashdognz]

Hello Blackbob, Yes the videos were more for the sound so you could hear the 'lovely' diesel tones! Although there is a nasty knocking sound in the engine. Wish I could confirm that my timing is definately 23 degrees but I only have these random serial number shots which I can't match any lists yet.

Serial number pictures



pump pictures



She did start again this morning. I always use the extra Diesel button, but in the end I had to use ether to kick her into life. A LOT easier than last night anyway, just a few squirts of ether this time until she was warm enough to be able to idle.

Video of this mornings cold start
https://youtu.be/NhFDwzrlav4

I have included a shot of the throttle control going into the pump. (Simms pump). The throttle was quite stiff a few weeks ago and I had assumed that some rust/corrosion just need me to be more brutish. However if I am 'lucky' the cable has broken and that is the cause of my throttle issues.

I currently have a catch 22 / chicken and egg problem. I am really motivated to get the tractor going as it would be a big help with putting up my garage/workshop which I have started work on. However I know there are lots of maintenance/repairs/rebuilding I would like to do on my tractor which will be much easier when I have a workshop! My current plan is to see if I can get the tractor going well enough, quickly enough, to use it for lifting trusses/ pulling bracing pegs out of the ground/ moving heavy building packs of materials etc. Then once the workshop is up I plan to see how renovation of the Super Major I can get done. Obviously a working tractor is more important to me than a pretty tractor right now!

Thanks Brian for the tips on the ATF change for the pump. This is my shopping list today
-ATF
-engine oil (20/30)
-transmission oil (not sure just yet, I will search the forums)
much more fun than xmas shopping at least.

Thanks, Heath.

[Brian]

Watching the video I would say you still have fuel problems or the pump is crook. There did not seem to be any smoke after you had been cranking for a while and she did not fire until you gave her the ether. If you use ether on those tractors, you will break rings and pistons. Your weather is not really cold and she should start straight up.

You say you use the cold start button, open the throttle halfway, push the button in, start the engine and button flies out. Just a way off thought and easy to try. Get a pair of pliers and grip the button, pull it out and operate the stop at the same time. Those buttons are known to stick and can give you similar symptoms to what you have.

If that is the cause of the problem, go and buy some lottery tickets because your luck is in.

[blackbob]

Yes my Leyland has the same pump and the same problem, you have to pull the button back out after each cold start (sometimes by quickly moving the stopper lever) and it does look like your button is maybe half-way in? Maybe not.

I don't have a Super here with that pump, although I have a JCB digger - and its throttle mechanism is just rods and levers, going to the 'inside' of the pump, is your tractor not the same?

I thought there was a 'chappin' sound when I watched your first video (with a surname like that you obviously have Scots roots, so you'll know what I mean)

Although I was a bit worried when I tried to open your Flickr photos and was warned that there was 'Adult Content' - we don't want that kind of thing on this forum, we're happy to stay children with our toy tractors

And from the info I have, that looks like an October 1963 serial number

[flashdognz]

Slowely chippin away at the possible causes, and through deduction I am guessing the pump needs to come out... maybe after xmas...

Tonights test
https://youtu.be/OFedJby_XoU

Example of her running properly last month, quite a different tractor, how sad:(
https://youtu.be/qbgCJnQwPos

Brian,
I dumped the oil out of the injector pump and replaced with ATF. not expensive at all. THe fluid that came out was really thin, it could have been atf from the previous owner possibly. wasn't thick enough for engine oil (IMO). Although I was happily surprised at how clean the inside of the pump and its oils were. I kind of expected the inside to be as filthly as the outside. But I was wrong!

Then I traced back the throttle arm and that seems to be working fine. When I tested tonight (shown in the video link) I used the pliers to hold the cold start button in. and you can visibly see it trying to start with a lot more black smoke. But in the end I could only start it with a careful amount of Ether. I hear you Brian about ether. it does some quite violet. So I am just using 'dab's of it to tease it into an idle.

BlackBob,\
RE my scottish roots. I am really keen to come over and find my ancestors homelands and loch lamond if I recall correctly. We just had our first wee son Fergus Macfarlane. So will have to get him over there before he is 2yrs to anoy the other passegners!

RE my flicker account. beware, there are pictures of nude horses and chickens (no clothes). There are also some wedding shots, and the bride and groom do some PDA (a kiss in public no less!). OMG flicker and its automatic judgements! I would love to see a screen shot of the 'adult content' warning, as it is a bit annoying.

and black bob, thanks for the engine date. Good to know.

The big cable which goes into the back end of the pump turned out to be for some instrumentation on the driver panel but the looks after tracing it back. However it is completely snapped at the pump end. Which makes sense, I have zero instruments working (not a problem for me, as I can tell if she is stopped or not by just looking the window!)

[flashdognz]

I just had a thought as I was lying in my bed visualising the next steps in my trouble shooting.
Instead of pulling the pump apart, perhaps I should pull the lifter apart first.

When she first ran out of fuel, before all this starting/running calamity, something strange had happened. I filled the diesel tank and started pumping away on the lifter thumb lever to get fuel up the top filter for bleeding. However nothing happened initially, even after 50 pumps or so. I had even given up and wandered off to console myself in my little shed. In the mean time my wife was sitting with the tractor looking after her in her time of need. From the shed I heard Sandra yelling that fuel was gushing out of the top filter first bleed bolt. When I raced back to the tractor it was absolutely gushing out of the first bolt and had filled a dog bowl my wife had used to catch it. Somehow my manual pumping had seemed to 'build up' pressure head of fuel, and that pressure was released a minute later after I walked away when something must have shifted under the pressure.

I suspect (quite bloody obvious now as I write it down in the post) that there must have been a major blockage in the lifter. Being one of the first components in the fuel line this is logical. One other odd thing is that my tractor doesn't have a transparent fuel bulb between the tank tap and the lifter. Not sure if that is normal or not or if that is a problem.

Any ideas on how the lifter works and is it likely it would help to pull that appart? could I find treasure in there blocking the fuel? One contradiction to this theory is that when I manually lift the fuel now with the thumb lever, it seems to lift quite easily. Like quite normal. Unlike the senario I described above in the second paragraph.

[Brian]

You should have a lift pump like the one in the first picture. Just take the bolt out of the centre and behind the red plastic diaphram the gunge will be hidden.

The lift pump only works when the cam shaft is in the right position, if the camshaft is on the pump stroke, nothing will happen when you pump the plunger. Turn the engine over a little and the pump will work.

You will find it is cheaper to replace the pump than get a repair kit. IMHO.

[blackbob]

Ok so you have taken the cover off the injection pump, but we don't know what you saw inside. Behind the 2 plates which the cover attaches to, there is a square-section horizontal rod, with 4 vertical bracket-sort-of-things attached to it. If you lever with a screwdriver, the rod ('rack') and its brackets, should all be free to move side-to-side easily; it should not be stuck solid.. And, when you push in the cold start button, the rack should move a little, I think forwards although I can't remember exactly. Don't worry if you dislodge the 2 plates with the threads in the middle, you will see that they fit into slots and just need to be turned a quarter-turn to refit them.

I couldn't watch right to the end of the first video, it was just too painful It occurred to me that you may not have much compression, I know it is summer there and you may have a huuge battery, but it does spin over quite quickly - did the previous owner use ether too? Although, I think you said it started/ran ok before this disaster?

So you have a lift pump like the one in post #3? Undo the middle bolt and take the cover off, you will probably find dirt - and the mesh may be damaged, allowing dirt to travel further. That may explain the sudden gush while your wife was tenderly caring for the old tractor. (you should keep her, it sounds like you are sorted for your old age )

Loch Lomond is north of Glasgow, maybe 100 miles south of here. My dad was from a large family, and his 4 oldest brothers all emigrated to NZ in the 1930's - I have cousins and various others over there, who I have never met. Mostly Otago, Gore area (where I understand most people are of Scots descent) although the name Rotorua comes to mind, which I think is in the north?

And yes the cable from the back of your injection pump is/was your rev-counter drive. And that really is the least of your worries just now...

[flashdognz]

Thanks Brian and Bob and a merry xmas to you both.

It was exciting this morning that Santa (rather a B & a B) had left more clues. I am learning a lot. I honestly wouldn't have logged on, but for some reason I am awake before the rest of the house, and its too early to open presents.

Re the video being painful. I hear you Bob. When I am in pain, I just go back to the video from last month where she is running nicely...

This is a nice video
https://youtu.be/qbgCJnQwPos

Merry xmas

Heath.

[flashdognz]

Break through! Tractor is as good, if not better than before. All the trouble shooting and maintenance has improved at least the starting, if not the running also.

I went through with opening the centre bolt on the lifter pump, and removed a tone of sludge. This must have been the sludge that got shifted after running out and needing to bleed her. The same sludge that caused a block, which I then cleared and it must have gone through to the injectors.

By rebleeding I could see a big difference in pressure at the fuel filter.

I then retested at by running with the 4 fuel lines detached from the injectors at the top. This looked all good.

The tractor still had the same symptoms but about 4% better to run. still ether to start, still idled badly. and Only idled. Rubbish actually.

Then I was committed to the idea of the injectors being clogged, or the injector rack, with the diesel jelly I must have disslogged originally.

What the heck I said to myself, and then I remembered your comment Brian about adding the ATF to the fuel tank. I inspected the tank and it was actually pretty clean. I added the ATF and cranked the engine up with Ether and got her into a steady but poor idle

Wish I had filmed this part. It was a beautiful thing. The exhaust got a lot darker and smellier. I was almost choking on it. It was a lovely thing. I'll always remember that sweet smell! Slowely the revs picked up a little (throttle was at max). So I then tried going to minimum revs and the throttle responded for the first time in a very long time.
Slowely the injectors must have cleared with the ATF running through them. And finally I have my old girl back. What a beauty (one day maybe). at least she is my beauty and she is running again!


Thank you Blackbob and Brian. This is it, I believe this thread is complete, and successfully cured!


Video of final results....
https://youtu.be/FuxDWr693_Q

It is 4pm xmas day here right now. What a great gift. Thanks again.

[Brian]

That sounds so much better, still has a bit of a miss but a lot better than previous videos. Keep running a quart of ATF to a tank of diesel for a few fill ups and, if possible, give her a bit of hard work.

Our Christmas dinner is fast approaching, it is 12 noon here. Happy New Year.