Help Wont Run Right

[NT]

Sorry for asking so many questions but i really need some help. The 58 new major that i have is giving me serious fits. I just bought this not to long ago and it didnt run quite right so i sent the injectors out to be cleaned. Two of them were sticking bad according to the mechanic. There good now. I put them in and tried to start it today after bleeding very well. Wouldn't start so i took a look at the injection pump and the timing was off. I reset it as to specs from manual and i fired up. Seemed to be running on all cylinders. Has alot of white fuel smoke at idle but idles decent. When you give it throttle it would pour the white smoke and takes forever to pick up rpm if it even does. I have took the pump inspection plate of for a brief period to see if everything was moving good and it is. I tested the vaccum governor like the book says to and it shows good. The adjuster for the injection pump that people so much like to crank up for more power has the safety wire cut like someone has messed with it before. I talked to a mechanic and he said it might just be to far out of adjustment for it to run right. So i messes with that a little and had no cignificant changes in the way it ran. Then it just got worse and would not change at all. I set it back to where it originally was and it runs terrible now. Takes a little shot of ether to get it to start. Wont run for more than a minute on its own. And wont even pull the tractor in first gear. What have i done what could be the problem. I would really appreciate and help you guys have. Thanks a lot

[Grani]

Did he check the spraypattern from the nozzles and did he adjust the opening pressure on them?

[NT]

Yes they were sonic cleaned then adjusted for open pressure, checked for leakage. Sproay pattern checked. They went to a high end shop that has great equiptment.

[Brian]

I would doubt your problems are injector related. There are other things that will give white smoke and low power. My first thoughts would be timing. What setting did you use?

[NT]

The book called out the possibility of 2 which were 19deg btdc and 23deg btdc all depending on which head gasket thick or thin. I tried both. It seemed to run a little better at 19 but there really wasnt a whole lot of noticable difference between the 2. Was thinking today of trying some different settings around that area to see if any of them made it run better. Atleast i have had a good week for working on it been around 60 most days. Thanks

[Brian]

You should be on 23 degrees.

The 19 degree setting was dropped back in 1959 when they dropped the steel head gasket, which was not a success. It is highly unlikely that you will find an engine fitted with the steel head gasket still in service.

If there is any possibility the engine is prior to No. 1308977 then the timing should be 26 degrees.

The other causes for white smoke are low compression or a leaking head gasket letting water into the system.

It would be helpful if you could tell us if you have had, or know of anything else that has been done to the engine in the past.

There is also the other possibility that she has spent many hours running on a light load. She might just need work to get a buildup of dry hard carbon on the pistons.

[Tmac]

If you are sure you have the correct or near correct timing.

1. For a quick test, remove the rubber air intake line, then start. If this makes a "BIG"
change for the better, remove and BOIL out the whole air cleaner. If your tractor has been outside for any length of time there could have water FROZEN in the air filter, or even in the top mesh.

2. Make sure you have a new fuel filter, and that it is the correct one for your housing. Also if the weather is cold freezing or less heat your filter housing with a heat gun. Minute ice crystals in the fuel will plug and freeze on the fuel filters surface.
This problem will give a a guy fits because it comes and goes.

3. That the glass sediment bowl is clean and the fine screen in that housing is CLEAN.

4. Make sure that there is a good flow of fuel from the tank. With the tank valve open the fuel should flow well by gravity alone.

5. That the fuel itself is of recent filling.

Just some simple tests that make a BIG difference

[NT]

Alright i'll set the timing to 23 deg. I have the number written down somewhere but i know it starts with a 1459 so its after the number you listed. I belive it has good compression took a large battery to crank it plus i bent one of my good pry bars to a 90 degree angle trying to hand turn the engine when setting timing. Overall i think the engine is pretty tight. Hits like 30 psi on oil pressure cranking and goes to 40 when idle.The coolant level hasnt dropped in the run time i have got it to do plus i havnt seen bubbles in the coolant or coolant in the oil. I dont know what has been done to the engine in past. I suspect rebuild because of how good pressures are plus there is traces of red silicone on oil pan and timing cover. Also you can tell that someone has had the entire valvetrain removed from the head by looking at the metal locking tabs having been bent and rebent. Hopefully it doesnt need to be worked to get running good again cause it wont even pull itself in 1st low let alone run more than a minute. My 3 bottoms probably would stop it imidiately. . There is a good flow of fuel from the tank. I have cleaned and refilled filter prior to running. So i dont think either of those are a problem. Also cleaned sediment bowl and little screen. Its around 60 right now so dont belive im having a freezing problem. Cleaned out tank put in fresh fuel and brand new filter. I started looking into the governor today(vaccum type). I did the test by the book saying to pull stop lever all the way back then seal vaccum lines. Governor didnt return until i took fingers off of lines it made a clunk noise when it returned. Did it about 5 times with same results. Just to check my vaccum lines are hooked up as top one to out side and bottom one to inside. I tried sucking on the lines today to see what would happen on the top line/outside line(bleed line) i would have to keep vaccum on it constantly but when i would stop i could here a slight clunk. When done on the lower line/inside line (suction line as labled in book) it was like there was a constant flow of air as much as i sucked on it fresh air just kept coming through. Is this right im not to sure. Also just for good mesure i did switch vaccum line and there was no running difference in the engine. Thanks

[Brian]

Lock tabs on the rockers were changed back in 1955. It should have spring washers. If you have only just bought it and it has never run right I wonder if someone has been building an engine from bits.

Where are the screws that hold the rocker cover on? Are they around the edge or are they through the top and into the rocker pedestals.

Where does your breather go from the rocker cover. Does it go to the air cleaner or does it go into the inlet manifold.

Are the ports in the head for the manifold in a straight(ish) line or are they staggered. Does the throttle pass through the block or does it go around the back of the engine?

The other thing to check would be the valve clearances. They should be .012 thou. on the exhaust (ones with rotator caps) and .015 for the inlet valves. Use the rule of 9 to check them. Valve No.8 fully open, check No.1, No.7 fully open, check No.2 and so on.

[NT]

The rocker cover screws are around the edges 6 of them.Round head flat blade type.

Breather goes from top of cover to the air breather.

I would say in a straightish line

Throttle goes just behind engine through 2 little support tabs.

I set the valve clearances at those specs in the very begining.

[Brian]

OK so know we are sure it is the later Mk2 engine. As you say the timing should be at 23 degrees and the valve clearances are correct. The injectors have been serviced and are spraying correctly. There is no fliud loss so the head gasket should be OK although they can blow between cylinders and this would not show up in the radiator. These are all the simple things and it will now get complicated.

You say she needs ether to start. Any ideas how long this has been happening? If the injectors were faulty it is possible that the previous owner has been using ether to get her going and has broken rings or pistons. Or again it could be a blown head gasket between the cylinders.

But if she has been down before, and you say there is red hermatite on gaskets, there could be a chance that the main timing has been set incorrectly. This would be my next place to look.

Drain the radiator and remove the bottom hose. Take the front pulley off and the dynamo/alternator. Remove all the bolts around the timing cover and take this off. You should then be able to check the timing marks on the gears in the front. If you look in the Wiki on this site there is an article on overhauling Henrietta, my Major. Although she is a petrol/kerosene, it is exactly the same as the diesel in the front. There are pictures of the marks you are looking for.

[NT]

I dont know how long it has been using ether. I got it off of a friend of mine who only had it for a month. He got it from a guy who had left it sitting un run under a tree for 4 years.

I cant say if the head gasket is blown or not but im assuming its not between cylinders. When i had it running one time where it would actually idle for more than a minute i was cracking injector lines to try to get more air out. Working from the front back line 1 when cracked seemed to barely if any affect the running of the engine. Line 2 show a drastic decrese in rpm. Line 3 did the same as 2. Line 4 showed very little difference but was slightly noticable.

I was thinking after i got done investigating the gov. i would probably check the main timing since like you i figured it could be a possibility that someone didn't set it right. Did what i described about the gov sound normal. I have tried to get into the wiki section before and have been unable to, but i have an I&T manual that shows the timing marks. Thanks

Hopefully this doesnt all come down to needing to get the pump rebuilt.

[Brian]

Its not a bad job to tgake the governer housing off and just check the diaphram but the usual problem when this fails is the engine revs up and will not shut down.

You sound as if you are getting fuel into the engine but it is not being burnt. This indicates low compression or mis-timing. That is why I think you are either going to have to remove the head and check inside the engine or go for the timing cover.

Neither is a bad job to do but you can bet your bottom dollar that you will choose the wrong one first We call it "Murphy's Law"

[NT]

Alright I'll pop the governor just so i can rule that out then after that probably do the timing cover and hopefully somone just messed up the timing. With my luck though it will go as you said and i pull the wrong one first. But at least step by step i will be eliminating things. Im hoping timing though. Just seems like that may be what it is. Would make sense because when i originally got it to run before i ever messed with the pump timing it would run but really terrible. Thats when i discovered that the timing instead of being 23deg btdc was set at 16 deg after tdc. Just seemed to me like it wouldnt even run with the fuel going in that far after. But if the timing is off inside it could have been closer to before tdc than it actually shows. (If any of that makes sence). Regardless you can bet i will let you know how things go. Thanks very much for the help.

[NT]

OK i took the timing cover off today which wasnt that bad of a job. The timing is all dead on. But i also think i might have made a breakthrough. Could this little $15 part called the fiber drive that couples the pump to gears cause my problems. There is not a lot of wear on it in the notches that key to the pump but there is quite alot where it keys into the shaft coming from timing housing. Like maybe 3/16-1/4". Reason im suspecting this it after putting the cover and all back together i decide to try setting the timing again at the pump. But this time i decided to take up the slop in the fiber drive by wedging a screw driver into the top side thus taking up any play it would have in the proper direction. I tightend up the bolts and figured why not try to start it. Went over to the crank lever pushed it down it cranked and hit a little then cranked a few more times and fired up(without ether ) that right there was an improvement. It actually ran on its own and didnt try to die. I have some throttle response back actually better than ever did. still takes a while to respond to full throttle from idle(20sec). Once its full throttle i can mess with the throttle Like quick up and down movements and actually get halfway decent response. The downfall is i still have lots of white smoke. What do you think could it all be in that fiber drive or probably need to rebuild pump. I didnt get to run it to long cause i hadnt put antifreeze back in it. Thanks Oh and i really dont think it has any cylinders blown out between gasket. And the engine has enough compression that by turning the nut on the front of engine with a big 3/4 drive ratchet i would have to put everything i had into it to get it through compression strokes.

[Brian]

Think you may have found your problem.

If the keyway is worn in the auxillary drive shaft then it will have quite an effect on the timing. You would really need to fit a new shaft if things are badly worn there. That would mean dropping the sump and timing cover, removing the pump and oil pump to get the shaft out. These engines are pretty critical on timing, you only need to move a degree either side of the 23 mark to get run problems. You say she was 16 degrees after TDC? That is a heck of a lot out! The fibre drive will always be a little loose and clatter but the key and keyway in the shaft is critical.

To have your pump checked might be a good idea but it will be pretty costly. Thats why you need to investigate every other possibolity first. I am sceptical that the pump is the cause of your problem. If the engine was overfueling, the smoke would be black rather than white. The white smoke is timing, low compression or injectors as the fuel is not burning properly. White smoke could also be due to oil getting past broken rings or washed pistons.

[NT]

Alright, well i havn't checked the keyway yet but i'll pull it all apart tomarrow and see if the key shows any wear and also see what kind of shape the groove on the coupler and the shaft are in. For all i know the key could have sheared and that coupler shifted a slight hair. Its always the little things that cause the problems. I had a 4-wheeler shear the flywheel key before. Would not run at all and i never would have figured it out cept for i boutght a new timing chain thinking it was streched causing my problem. Took the flywheel off to replace chain and there it was busted key. Took a spare out of another motor i had put it in and timed it. Thing fired like brand new. Guess its gonna be shame on me if a key has fooled me again . Think i might go ahead and replace that fiber disc to. To me it just seems like an awfull lot of wear. I left the bolts loose on the adjuster so that just the fiber would turn the pump and the crank turned over 30deg before the coupler had started to contact the drive plates. Yea the timing was way out in the begining couldnt belive it would even run like that. I'll let ya know what i come up with. Thanks

[NT]

Completely dumbfounded on this tractor. I adjusted everything so that even though there is slop in the pump drive the timing is dead on. Tractor still does the same thing as it always has. Tons of white smoke. So i know the timing is good, engine has good compression, no coolant leakage and the injectors are good. Never have i had so many different people tell me that they really didn't know what was wrong. I did notice something today when i took the gov apart. If i put vaccum on the inside/suction line and have the bleed line open like it would be the diaphram doesnt move a mm. If i cover the bleed pipe side the diaphram works great no leaks. So i put the gov back on and fired up the tractor i then cover up the bleed line so that i knew the diaphram would work and it didnt make alot of difference in the way it ran except it dropped the rpm by like maybe a 100. Just dont know what to do with this thing. Seems i have found a tractor that has a way of its own.

[Brian]

You certainly have tried most of the usual things! But we seem to be missing something. I am starting to wonder about why she has been to pieces before you got her. The smoke has not got a blue-ish tinge to it has it? I am wondering if she has been stripped down and someone has cleaned the tops of the pistons, so taking away the carbon seal. Or if they have had the pistons out and damaged the oil control rings. Or someone may have left the seals off the valve stems. If the valves stems were worn she could be drawing oil in there.

Low power is also a concern. Usually they are pretty good. My Super which has basically the same engine, had been standing for 10 years before I got her running. She smokes like mad to start with but will pull like mad too.

Try moving the timing a little at a time towards 26 degrees and see what happens. It may clear the smoke a little.

[NT]

My thought was it may have been apart to rebuild. No there is no oil smoke to it just that unburnt fuel. When i had the injectors out i shined a flashlight down into the cylinders and could see the piston tops 3 of them showed some carbon build up not real heavy looking though. And the very front one had a cleaner looking piston in it but could see light carbon build up on it. Correct me if im wrong but when i was setting the valves i noticed the guide seals where the unfixed umbrella type. Least thats what there called over hear(chevy uses those kind on exhaust valves) I didnt pay attention if thats how they where on all the valves just noticed that a few where like that. I think that the power issue might be because its not running on all cylinders when i get it running just 1or 2. Figure the ones i dont have running are putting out the white smoke because there missing. There is something else that i noticed. And that is that like when its been shut down and i go to restart it those times that it wants that ether to restart if i dont give it ether it wont start. But if i crack the number 2 injector line loose and crank it a few times then tighten it back up the tractor will start back up. With the tractor running if i crack that line loose its certain to shutdown. So i guess its just running on that 1 cylinder. Although i belive the very first time i had it running it was on 2 cylinder cause both lines 2 and 3 really slowed the engine 1&4 never had much effect. I do have 2 fuel leaks i didnt know if they would cause the problem. Both are on the pressure side. One at the line the comes out of the lift pump and the other right where it screws into the injection pump. I figured since is the pressure side and not the suction that it shouldnt let air in. I really dont know anymore maybe this new info will help you out. Thanks Also i have tried advancing and retarding the timing 1 deg at a time either way and seen no real difference on the smoke 23 deg seems to be where it want to run best though so it sitting there now.

[Mike Kuscher]

I've been watching progress on this one.
Something is 'nagging' at me.
In an earlier post you stated that disconnecting fuel lines to cylinders 2 and 3 affected running of the engine but there was little or no difference if you disconnected 1 or 4.
This sugests that 1 and 4 are not working properly.
Have you tried a compression test?
Could be missing/broken rings in 1 and 4, or maybe something more 'ominous'.

[NT]

Yeah i know what your saying mike. I dont have a compression checker that reads pressure as high as a diesel gets. I've been basically just assuming that it has good compression on all cylinder based on the facts that i have which arnt much. Just that it took a big battery to crank it. And that when cranking it over with my big pry bar on the ratchet on the front i can feel when each cylinder hits it compression stroke and they all feel about equal. I know this is nowhere near a conclusive test but its the best call i can make right now. Also when i crank and listen to each cylinder slowly i can listen to how much is blowing by the rings. And it doesnt sound to bad. Also when i have had the engine runing ive had the valve cover off most of the time and going by the fact that any blow by has to come out the top of the engine. I cant say that i have seen any real signs that there is much if any coming through. If i had broken rings alot more would pass by and probably look more like my 8n which is in need of rebuild. Thanks for the input

[Brian]

All your symptoms point to low compression on 1 and 4. Diesel is getting into the cylinders because you are getting white smoke indicating unburnt diesel and its not firing. This can only be caused by low compression.

You have had the injectors checked and timing set correctly. If the pump was faulty the diesel would not be getting into the cylinders. You can prove this yourself by removing the injectors and fitting them on the pipe from the pump and cranking the engine. You can see the spray pattern but do not let it onto your skin as the mist will penetrate the skin and you might have to have the limb amputated.

Once you get to the point you are at, it only leaves low compression to be the fault as you have done everything else. If it were mine I would be taking the head off and checking for bore/piston wear and any marks on the bores. You should also drop the sump and remove the pistons.

One other thing is worn valves or seats which could cause these symptoms but I would have thought you would have heard "thumping" in the air cleaner or exhaust.

The valve seals are correct so that has reduced the likelihood of those being faulty.

[NT]

Great low compression just what a person without a job needs to hear . But i have good feeling the the tractor is gonna be one hell of a machine when its running so as i get the money i'l do some fixing on it. But probably have to put it on side bar for now. I will go ahead and pull the injectors just to make sure there pumping good. I'll deff keep the body parts i wanna keep out of the way. Atleast it not one of these new common rail fuel sytems that run anywhere between 25 and 50,000 psi fuel pressure. Thanks much. I'll let ya know what the progress is when i get somewhere with it.

[NT]

Well i finally got a chance to look at the tractor again. Have been working terrible hours and just now got a day off. I decided to check the injection pump like you said by removing the injectors and turn them upside down. So i did that and only #2 was firing 1,3&4 did nothing. So i tried switching all the injectors around to line 2 and all the injectors work just only #2 builds enough pressure to get them to work. I also noticed that the only injector that had carbon deposites on it was #2 so i guess it was only running on that cylinder. I cant make sense of the white smoke though. Unless maybe with the engine at rpm the pump was building enough pressure to slightly open the injector but not enough to make the fine mist. So looks like i need to send off the pump. I'll let you know how it all turns out. Thanks Nathan