Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

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dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi Mathias and thanks for that, but that's exactly what I've done. I've taken them off and put them back on several times to see if I've really missed something that's obvious, but I still get the slackness in the small springs that hold the shoes against the back plate. I've tried to take up the slack with the threaded adjusters that protrude from the back plate and hold the shoes in place, but still the slackness. I've even considered pulling the springs further out and putting a pin across it so that it pulls the spring tighter; but that wouldn't be right and I shouldn't have to do that. I can't figure it out. In the next couple of days (rain permitting) I'm going to get back to you with some pics of exactly what I mean. It's sitting with a trailer full of timber at the moment, so once I've ditched the trailer we can get a better look. It's puzzling me. Just to re-iterate, there are new springs, new shoes, new cables, yet it still won't work. I'm obviously doing something that's so obviously wrong I can't see it. :shock:

mathias1
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by mathias1 »

Ok, the moment we have some pictures we maybe can see the problem. I think it is really urgent you get yout brakes sorted.
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blackbob
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by blackbob »

We have to get these brakes sorted. We have enough to worry about politically in the World at the moment, without the additional worry of whether you are going to run over your cat because you can't stop your tractor :shock:

I think we really have to press you to give us some photos to examine, Dukey. (Can we call you Dukey?) It should then be more obvious to us if you have something missing, or put together wrongly, or just incorrect parts. I really can't understand why you have springs loose, that is just wrong. It should look exactly like Adrian's photo above.

When I bought my tractor it had similarly poor brakes, after fitting new linings and cables it is now a pleasure to use. There are several of us on this forum who would happily remove a wheel and take photos and guide you through the process of reassembling your brakes properly. But a photo of what you have, may be all we need. :idea:
1440276 - 1957 - working
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Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

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dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi Bob, yeah you can call me Bill if you want. Dukey was a nickname given to the previous occupier and it's not something someone can easily 'hack' so that's why I use it. Running over the cat?...don't even mention that to the Mrs or she wouldn't let me near the tractor. I've taken some pics BUT for some reason, it seems I have to pay someone (Photobucket or equivalent) to send my own photographs! Barmy; what are the moderators and administrators thinking of? Do you know another way of posting pics on the site apart from getting email addresses and sending them as attachments? Anyway, yes, I really do have to get them fixed. I have on two occasions removed them, compared them with photographs and replaced them but to no avail. Whenever I renew or replace anything, I always keep the duff parts to compare with the new ones provided as it's surprising the times I've been sent the wrong parts, but, everything seems to match, it just won't operate as it's supposed to. At first glance, it looks as if the small springs near to the steady posts are too long - but they aren't. I'm going to get the trailer full of timber off it and remove the wheels and start again at square one. Btw, the new cables seem to be adjusted longer more than the old ones were; is that a clue? The brakes that came off were the old original and everything was rusted so there was this massive cleaning and freeing operation. That's when the problems started. The pedals have virtually no travel in them and when you turn the wheels by hand, the brakes operate exactly as they should but when they are tried on the track, they just don't work and then the springs come lose. Whatever it is, it's staring me in the face and I just can't seem to see it. I feel removal next week will tell. Now, whenever I do anything, I make sure I photograph it first before removing it. A good system but a little too late for the Fordy. I appreciate your interest Bob. What do you know about Topper Cherry Pickers? :?

mathias1
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by mathias1 »

Some people on the board are using http://postimage.org with good results so far.

Here is how it works:
You can make an account on the website, so you can create your own album. This allows you to add or remove pictures when ever you need to. It is possible to use the website without an account, but you won't be able to alter your pictures.

1) chose size 800x600 (15inch monitor)
2) then chose the files you want to upload
3) Copy the code in the "Hotlink for forums" box
4) Paste the code in the message box together with your message.
Fordson Super Major New Performance
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blackbob
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by blackbob »

Just a thought, based on your earlier posts - are your cables fitted correctly into the backplates? I got new cables from Agriline, one at a time, when the first one came I couldn't get it to fit correctly (I almost attacked it with a grinder to make it fit) but it wasn't until I decided to fit a new cable to the other side, that I realised that that was what I already had, and they had sent me a left-hand instead of right-hand? I feel pretty embarrassed about it really, it now seems so obvious, but I had just assumed that the difference between left and right was something to do with length, or perhaps positioning of the grease nipple.
But, if your cables are fitted snugly in place, with the screw (1/2" spanner) holding the end of the cable, then we can discount that as a possible solution.

And no, you shouldn't have to pay anything to post photos here. I use Imgur, I haven't tried any others. Any excuse to post a photo.. :D (There is a Major in this pic, taken in 1978)
Image
1440276 - 1957 - working
1335674 - err - one day..
Claeys combine M103 - 1963 703129 - working
Ford 7710 2wd, 1983 - working

The Fordson Tractor Pages. Built to be relied on.

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Many thanks for the guide to posting pics - now there's no stopping me. I'm not too good at techy stuff I'm afraid and need coaxing. Okay - it's rusty, but I love it and I'm collecting the 'bits' to tart it up, but until then he's one of the team and I can't be without him. The lengths of the cables are different and they have seated properly into the back plate. The 'post' has been freed and holds the shoes in what appears to be their correct position. As I said earlier, what I can't figure out is why the springs are loose, and why it seems to work when the wheels are off the ground but not when on the road. Any ideas why the springs are like that?......and yes I see the Fordson lurking to the left of the photograph. Thanks guys.

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And as everyone seems to be showing their medals, here are mine for what it's worth:-

1954 Major Diesel - running but not stopping
1985 Case 1594 Hydra - running
1971 Ford Type 13 digger (based on the 4000) - running
1965 DB 414 - running
1970 Thwaites Dumper single cylinder - running when it wants to run as it has a mind of its own
1931 Austin 7 RN Saloon - one day/dream on
1936 Singer 9 - ditto as A7

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

The next pics will have the wheels off so please bear with me.

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Sorry chaps but the Major is the only one low enough for the job I'm stuck in the middle of. Can you please just bear with me a little longer? :|

mathias1
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by mathias1 »

dukeyfox wrote:Sorry chaps but the Major is the only one low enough for the job I'm stuck in the middle of. Can you please just bear with me a little longer? :|
Hi dukey,

You will have to feed us with some more pictures from your brakes, like the inside...
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dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

As I've already said, thanks again for your unending patience. There is some slack on the cable on the n/s that wasn't evident when I fitted the cables. I'll leave it for now until I know what I am doing. There's evidence that the shoes are actually contacting with the inside of the drums as they should do. They have been skimmed to a safe tolerance i.e. not too much off. I've been using it on the flat at walking pace simply because I had to, but it isn't going anywhere now until the problem is solved. The bug bear is that when suspended the brakes operate and stop the wheels, but once on the ground all that goes out of the window and it feels like there are ball bearings instead of shoes. I've just had a long running 'brake battle' over my Volvo car and a lot of that was down to the fact the garage had fitted cheap and nasty shoes. These came from a reputable on Ebay. Has anyone had any issues with poor quality shoes and their ineffectiveness? It's not as though we're talking high speed performance. Any advice or comment please.


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Timeee
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by Timeee »

Dear Dukeyfox

I have a Super Major so I am unable to do a comparison of how you have assembled your brakes. However, this might be a long shot, but to me it looks as though you may have somehow mixed up the brake shoe sets you have acquired. The brake lining on the leading shoe (the top one in your picture) appears to start too far back from where it should be as the leading shoe. Compare the position of the linings on your brake shoes with respect to the pictures of the brake shoe linings put up on page one of this subject. Normally on drum brake systems, the leading (primary shoe) has a shorter lining than the secondary (trailing shoe), because the leading shoe tends to be pressed into the drum by the rotation of the drum, whereas the secondary shoe tends to be pushed away from the drum by the direction of rotation.

Just a thought

Tim

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi Tim and thanks for getting back to me. I seem to remember that they were marked 'R' and 'L' to avoid any confusion. I hear what you say and it makes sense but I'm trying to put it into action if you know what I mean. I've copied the 2 pics side by side so that you can see where I took my reference from. I've enclosed the shot and hope there are no copyright issues breached here. I'll be back out tomorrow to look at them again. Interesting point, thanks. I'll let you know.

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dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

I keep looking but I can't see a noticeable difference. Then again - I can never find anything in the house when I want it, no matter how hard I look.

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

..............and I've still got that puzzling loose spring problem.

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

I've just been talking to a mate of mine who reminded me that he called to see if he could help and we actually tried swapping sides with the shoes when we first fitted them, but that didn't work. The shoes are correct as they match the ones I took off.

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi Timee,

When you say 'too far back' are you referring to the distance from the brake drum to the surface of the shoe?

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by oehrick »

I think Timee means the radial position of the friction material on the shoe, there is usually a leading and trailing edge difference which decides if it is a left or right hand top or bottom shoe, I'm watching with interest as I've just got a new set of friction material to rivet on the old shoes and will be carefully marking up the shoes original positions before drilling the old rivets out. as far as your springs to the backplate are concerned, is it as simple as the ends need tweaking with two pairs of pliers to tighten or are they much looser??

I've also got a nearside cable assembly to replace, the original having several strands of broken wire in the Bowden cable which are restricting the release of the shoes......
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Timeee
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by Timeee »

Dear dukeyfox

Oehrick's observation is correct. The position of the lining material on the shoe is critical. Years working on classic cars with drum brakes led me to never trust what someone else may have incorrectly assembled in the past and it could be quite horrific what one found when the brake drum was finally removed. This was especially the case when pattern parts from "the land of nearly right" flooded the market. As I said before, this is probably a long shot, but it seemed you had tried everything else.

Tim

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Thanks Timee and oehrick; got it...I think, yes I understand now. I can see from the pics what I may, hopefully, have done wrong. Mrs at Dumfries Hospital tomorrow morning and it's a 140 mile round trip so I won't be getting a chance to look at it until Friday. From memory, I can't understand why there is so much movement in the whole assembly before I put the drum on. The whole thing can be maneuvered around and it doesn't help that the springs are so loose. They aren't just loose, they're really loose. Knee jerk was to pack the outside of the spring with washers, or as rick says just bend it over with pliers, but I feel that there's something fundamentally wrong with the whole set up. It's exactly the same components as came out on dismantling, but there's something not quite right. If I was to look at it for the first time, I'd say that it was the wrong set up and incorrect components, but it isn't. I still can't understand why. I've kept the old shoes etc and I'm going to do a detailed comparison - but I've done that before. Talk to you guys Friday night and thanks for your help.

mathias1
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by mathias1 »

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by Timeee »

Dear Dukeyfox

I have been studying the pictures and you might look at the positioning of the anchor pin on Adriannpmajor's picture showing it at 12 and 6 o'clock and yours, which is at 1 and 7 o'clock. This leads to your operating lever being visible , rather than being behind the lower shoe in Adrian's picture. It is as if the neutral position of your set up is further "on" than normal. It may be something to do with how the operating lever sits/operates on the cam lever. It is difficult when one cannot lay hands on the offending parts to closely examine what the problem can be, but Dorset is a long way away. As an aside, the repair manual confirms that the shoes are interchangeable, (provided they are to specification)

Timeee

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

I've already written this but once and needed to refer to something on the thread, so I 'saved draft' but didn't have a clue how to retrieve it! So - here we go typing it all again. Many thanks Mathias and timee for you input and useful diagram. Today I took a good look at it. Loose cables, operating levers unable to move as they are against on of the 4 wired securing studs, as timee rightly points out, the cam isn't in the position it should be (or as in the photo's in this thread) and that it also seems to be because the spring (new) on the brake pedal isn't exerting enough pressure to return it to the 12 - 6 position, therefore it stays held in that position. The whole thing needs a complete re-think and I've dismantled it to start again. There is however one thing that still puzzles me, and that is why the retaining springs aren't tight enough? The posts that hold the shoes in position from the back plate are correctly adjusted to make the shoes at 90 degrees to the plate and cannot be adjusted any further as that will mean the shoes will be on an angle with the inside of the drum. The springs will be tight, but everything else will be wrong. . Maybe once everything is reassembled correctly, it may rectify itself. So it's all in bits again and I really need to take my time in putting it together. If only we had broadband out here where we live I'd be able to download the thread and compare it side by side on my mobile phone as I assembled it. In the meantime I have to be content with black and white screen shot copies from my printer which I'm sure belonged to Mr Babbage at one time. I will be 'changing sides' with the shoes to see if that makes any difference. Talk again after the weekend when I'm sure I'll present another list of unanswerable questions.

Thanks again chaps.

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