Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

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dukeyfox
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Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi there, and you'll probably guess I am new to this site. I have a Diesel major that I use quite regularly. He's rough and rusty but I couldn't be without him. I decided to treat him to new brake shoes, cables, springs etc, but seem to have one hell of a job re-fitting. First, the new cables don't seem to have enough length to them, and I've had to bore out the bracket that attaches to the underside of the axle to accommodate the reciever fitting for the retaining collar around the end of the sheath on the new cable so that it fits the recess in retaining bracket. That still doesn't give me any length that I need. The first thing I did was guess that they had sent me the wrong cables, but comparing them with the old cables, they are the same. The small springs and collars that hold the shoes to the backing plates are too loose and the assembly seems to just rattle around loosley. I can't guess what I am doing wrong and it's driving me daft at the moment. Anyone have any tips please? :scratchhead:

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

It's me again. I have cleaned and re fitted the brakes after having the drums skimmed. I am just a little puzzled as to how the expander should look. Looking at other posts and pics it looks as if the expander should be at its shortest length prior to the drum being replaced prior to adjustment, so I have done this. But no matter how I position the assembly or try to position the curved activation lever, the brake cables still seem too short and will not reach the pedal. Still puzzled.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by mathias1 »

I m not familiar with the brakes of the early majors as i have a super. Did you make some pictures before dismantling? Do you have the repair manual?
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by henk »

Could you please send some pictures. I've done this job, but i can not answer you unless I have seen how you set up is now.
Kind regards, Henk

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by blackbob »

There's quite a good photo here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RIGHT-HAND-S ... SwyltZOyQh

And yes the adjuster should be as short as possible..
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by Brian »

Check the cable length again, it is possible you have been sold Major brake cables but for the E27N Major, they have all the same fittings but are shorter because the E27N brakes are inboard and closer to the axle housing.
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by henk »

That was what i was thinking. Had the same problem then.
Kind regards, Henk

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dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi there everyone and thanks for the information I've gleaned from your posts. I didn't think anyone cared. This is how it's gone to date; I managed to adjust the expanders to their shortest length and refit the shoes and springs as per many pics I found on the net and thanks Henk for you ref to the great pic on Ebay. Now this is what happened, first I checked the length of the old cables with the new and they're identical, so I'm obviously doing something wrong somewhere. I managed to get some length from the cables - somehow during my fiddling and adjusting and checked the length of the retaining springs that fit into the small recessed 'cups' on the back plate. Everything that has come off, or fallen off through rust, is exactly the same size as everything that I've bought and replaced, but the small retaining springs are loose in the 'cup' recepticals as if they are also too long. I have freed and adjusted the set screws that are fitted to the top and bottom of the backing plates and appear to hold the shoes 'out' from the backing plate. Their original settings appear to have been correct, as can be seen from the rust marks. (You'll have to excuse my descriptions as I'm not yet up to speed with the correct terminology for the parts) But once fitted, the lever that attaches to the cable and works the cam appears to be too near to one of the wire-secured retaining bolts for the rear driveshaft. It does not allow the cable to pull the lever far enough forward to allow the cam to work on the brake shoes - you know what I mean? So I've adjusted it as far as I can in accordance with the pics I have seen and replaced the drums (I had to). I adjusted the adjusters until they interfered with the drums and then backed them off 8 clicks, so when the drums are turned and pressure is applied to the brake pedals, the shoes stopped the drums from turning which was great, although the retaining springs for the shoes still rattle around in their hole - mm?? Today I had to move the Major and decided to give it a go before resting it somewhere else so I'm not blocking the entry to my outbuildings. A good run along the rear driveway in top gear followed by the slamming on of the brakes - and - nothing. I might as well have thrown a rope and anchor off the dammed thing. So I adjust the cables - not really knowing what I was doing but just hoping for pot luck, and still nothing, so it's wheels off, back onto the girder and concrete blocks and time for the camera to come out so that people know what I'm talking about, because I certainly don't. I'm not talking to the tractor at the moment and I've stuck it into a part of the yard I know it doesn't like but hopefully when I stop sulking in the next couple of days I'll take some pics and ask you guys to carry out a post-mortum for me; if you'd be so kind.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by AdrianNPMajor »


dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Thanks Adrian, it is a great help and actually makes me feel quite inferior and insecure. Looking at the pic, if you look at the shaft securing bolt at 4 o'clock under the spline shaft, you will see that the cable connector and the arm are quite a way away from it thereby leaving you room for manuovre. Mine is almost up to it so that when the cable is tensioned, in other words moves the lever over to the left of the pic, it catches on the head of the bolt and restricts the amount of movment. Also, I still haven't worked out why the shoe retaining springs are loose in their cups. I have a mound of soil that has to be moved in the next 48hrs and as I'm having problems with my Case 1594, so the Major has to step up to the mark and pull the tipper trailer whether it's poorly or not. Thankfully it will be nowhere near the edge of a cliff so it'll be safe for that, despite no brakes. I'll utilise the TransLock. Once I've cleared the mound it's going to be stripped down again so I can sort the brakes once and for all. The moment I get the wheels off and the drums removed, I'll send you some pics. I'm really going to have to clean mine before I can show it. It's a pride thing.

Regards

Bill

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

By the way, I also see that your adjusters ARE fully in whereas mine have some rust damage to the threads and can't completely close. Will this affect it as they are almost closed?

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by Daves rusty bits »

Bill, you mention using the translock which I take it is the handbrake, don`t do that or you will weld the the plates together and b----- the thing completely.
I can`t offer advice on the drum brakes I don`t know any more than you do, I put new shoes in mine a year ago and the left one works perfectly, the right one snatches on and locks up yet they both look the same! :cry: Dave
1960 Power Major, 1975 International 475 - well no ones perfect.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

A few more images.
Once everything is clean, we can see better what the problem is.
Best, Adrian.

[url=https://postimg.cc/image/ixp3d9eor ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[urlImage][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/image/vp39jrw6j ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/image/k197omz5n ... .jpg[/img][/url]

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Thanks Adrian, what it's like to have a clean machine! Mine is in use constantly and only this week have I repleced a bundle of tightly bound inner tubes and fitted an old cast iron seat from some victorian machinery; luxury eah? Mine looks like yours only not as clean but is clean enough so that everything is visible and free to work. I still can't work out why the lever is so close to the head of the bolt? I'm also at a loss to understand why the retaining springs are loose? I was due to move a small mountain today with the digger but rain stopped play I'm afraid and so the Major has to remain on stand-by with the trailer until I do. The whole job shouldn't take more than a few hours and then it's time for the reveal once the wheels are removed. Your pics are a great help - that is in helping me to realise that I have a complete conumdrum before me.

Trans lock only when stationary - golden rule!

Regards

Bill

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Bill, the work in the photos is only clean because I cleaned it!
The third photo of the clutch side shows the failed outer seal on the bull pinion. The insides of the brake shoe housings were soaked with oil.
I was taught to "Dismantle and clean!" by someone who was taught to "Dismantle and clean!".
You only get to see the detail when everything is clean.
Best, Adrian.
Last edited by AdrianNPMajor on Tue May 01, 2018 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by blackbob »

Let me take you back in time to my first car, a 1967 Mini 850 - although the workings of drum brakes haven't changed much since then :lol:

When adjusting the back brakes, you must not have any tension in the handbrake cables - so loosen off the handbrake adjustment (at the bottom of the handbrake lever, in the Mini's case) before adjusting-up the shoes at the drum.

And I think the same would apply in the case of your Major - when you adjusted your adjuster, was the cable loose all the time? If not, you should have loosened it at the threaded (pedal) end.

I just had an idea, although it might not work - it sounds like you have swapped about among various shoes and drums... How about putting the drum flat on the floor, then placing into it the shoes, adjuster, springs, and actuating lever, then lengthening the adjuster so that the shoes make contact with the drum: then you can see what sort of position the lever is in? I am just wondering whether your drums are very worn/oversize, so that the shoes aren't making good contact.

As for the shoe retaining springs... I can only think that they are somehow 'wrong', or stretched.. Maybe try a washer over the hole in the backplate?
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Thanks for your posts Adrian and Blackbob. First, I usually powerwash where appropriate and/or steam clean if possible. However in this particular case, it just makes the problem clearer to see. I wish my workshops were as clean as the brake assemblies are now; and there'll be no photo's of the workshops - there is a limit to my shame, sometimes. Today I finished the mound removal so when my trusted helper 'Rambo' calls around this week the wheels are coming off and I will show you my err...clean brakes. Regarding the points that Blackbob raised, yes I did have the brake drums skimmed. I was having trouble centering them on my lathe so short of time to spare and in a hissy fit of temper I marched them off to my mate Willie (an engineer of 58 years standing) who sorted it in no time. When I collected them there were still groves in one of them. He had the good sense not to dig too deep as he didn't want to oversize them too much, which is the point you raised so hopefully it won't be that. Washers on the springs? Yes - I'd thought of that and intend to do it. As I have said earlier, they are new springs and are the same size of the ones I took off, so it's puzzling. Yes when I adjusted the brakes I had removed the pins from both brake pedals thereby leaving the cables hanging free and only after I had made the necessary adjustment did I adjust the cable adjusters to suit. I think mocking them up on the bench is a good idea and I'll try that. What still puzzles me, along with a whole wagon load of other stuff, is why when the drums were rotated manually before the wheels were fitted and pressure was applied to both brake pedals, did it seem to work perfectly? I adjusted them as per refitting instructions, backed them off 8 clicks when the brakes bit into the drums, yet when going live on the road, so to say, it was as if the brakes had been greased and there wasn't the slightest sensation of friction or the brakes biting? Odd.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Bob, apologies if I sounded sanctimonious about cleaning everything, but it is particularly crucial with this job. You can see that I even dusted everything with some old talcum powder I had! That is going too far, but being able to set up/adjust the various components in the pictures can only be done effectively if everything is easy to see and handle, and that brings us back to cleaning.
I did this job ten years ago, and no longer have a Major with drum brakes, but I do remember that replacing the drums (I didn't have mine skimmed) was a snug fit with new brake shoes - as you can see, I began with the adjusters screwed all the way in. By the way, making sure the adjusters are clean and turn freely is crucial for when you have the wheels back on and want to make final adjustments.
Be sure to replace the outer bull pinion seal whilst you have everything apart - you don't want oil and grease contaminating your new shoes. There is an inner bull pinion seal, but you can get away with not replacing this one.
If everything is set up as in the photos, and the skimmed drums are not so loose a fit that the adjusters cannot take up the slack, then you should be fine.
Good luck.
Adrian

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Just like to start letting you know I wasn't being rude in not responding sooner. Good morning everyone who has been kind enough to respond to my posts it is VERY MUCH appreciated. It's been some time since I was on line but not to labour the point, bad luck does come in three's and has shown no sign of going away in the forseeable future. I'm afraid the Major has been the last thing on my mind for a few months now. Feeling I now need that 'escape' (as everybody does sometime I'm sure) I went back to the major this week to continue where we left off with the brakes and need to move it to a more sheltered spot to strip it down again and provide some photographic evidence. However, when I started the major it ran for a few seconds, then the engine speed picked up, then it picked up a little more so suspecting something not right, I killed the engine. Then it wouldn't start again. But I did notice that when I was turning the engine over it turned over quicker than it ever had before. First thoughts have been it may have been a valve stuck open. Anyway, I changed the oil, filter and fuel filter - not really appropriate but just in case. Then I noticed that there was a leak from the tap on the tank, so I've bought a new one which I intend to fit today as there's a train of thought that says it's letting air into the system, although I can't quite see how. Then a friend of the family, doing me a favour, took it upon himself in my absence to try and start it with Easy Start!!! :cry: We've had gentle words, but he does tell me that it runs on the spray but stops when you try and let the engine run on fuel. I need no other comments on the last few sentences, but it has proven that the engine seems to be working. Let's hope there's no lasting damage caused. I digress; there's no smoke from the exhaust which tells me there's no fuel getting in, although when loosening the injectors, there's fuel there. Odd. Then last night I read about decompression levers, and I have them on other machines I possess and know what happens when they are actioned. The engine seems to be suffering from decompression, but there's no lever or decompression device anywhere on the engine. Has anyone any ideas so I can get it moved from blocking everything and continue with the braking problem? And by the way, bad luck must come in fours. Thanks.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Just further to this, I recall that the adjusters, or star adjusters as some call them, have damaged threads thereby not allowing them to be screwed 'all the way in' as you might say. Would this have some effect on the brakes? They almost screw up tight, but not all the way, there's about an 1/8th of an inch of damaged thread showing when they are screwed up. Anyone any ideas? This is of course depending on me getting it going at some time in the near future.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Thanks Adrian, I seem to have done all that and I can actually adjust them until the shoes touch the inside of the drums. I then back it off 8 clicks on the adjuster (which I assume is right) and get my trusted slave to turn the rear wheel hubs. Once turning, I apply the brake pedal and the brakes engage immediately and just as they should do. But the springs are still loose??? Anyhow, I replaced the wheels and tried it, and it was as if there was no brake at all. Pedal moves and applies pressure to the shoes, you can feel that, but totally ineffective. The seal on the bull pinion is intact as it was replaced about 8 years ago so there's no oil seeping from there. It feels like the drums are greased. I've cleaned them with brake cleaner and given the shoes a little ruffle with a small wire brush, but the result was the same. As I have said, I now have starting problems and will have to wait until the weekend before there's someone here to crack the injectors whilst I crank it over. Once going, then I'll start on the brakes again.

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi out there,

I return after just, and I mean just today (with the help of members Oehrick and Shepp) have I eventually sorted the starting problem. The brakes still don't work and despite stripping them down again and rebuilding them, they still don't work and the springs are still too loose, the cables still don't apply enough pressure, and the tractor still keeps going. Feels like the brake drums are greased, but they're not of course. Still scratching my head even after all the help I've been getting from members. Still the same. Still don't stop the machine. Flummoxed (if that's the right way to spell it).

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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by maxnowell »

Just been reading this thread with mixed sympathy and "been there" amusement! Did you get the brakes fixed?

dukeyfox
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by dukeyfox »

Hi and it's been an age since the thread and no; I still haven't got it sorted. I've been crawling around doing menial tasks with it but have hit the site again with a view to really getting it done as I need some stopping power. The springs are still slack and try as I may, I just can't get it to work. They aren't 'sided' are they? Surely not! :(

mathias1
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Re: Diesel Major rear brake shoe fitting

Post by mathias1 »

From the manual:
Remove rear wheels, drum covers and brake drums. Unhookthe shoe hold down springs from shoes and the two return springs from anchor post. Then lift off the brake shoes, adjuster and retracting spring.

To install new shoes, proceed as folloxs: fit square ends ofeach shoe in adjuster slots, connect the retracting spring at adjuster ends of shoes, then place the assembly on backing plate.
Connect the shoe hold down springs and anchor cups with longends og springs in brake shoes. Connect the return spring with long end to anchor pin and short end in second holein lower shoe. Connect the primary return spring with long end over anchor pin and short end in first hole of upper shoe. Loosen the anchor pin nut, back off the adjusting screw (retract shoes) and installthe brake drum. Turn adjuster forward to expand shoes tightly against the drum. Tap on anchor pin nut to center the shoes, then tighten adjuster further if possible. Tighten anchor pin nut, then back off adjuster until shoes just clear the drum. Loosen nuts on adjustable steady posts and slowly back the posts out until brake drum just drags on the brake shoes. Counting the turns, turn the steady posts in until brake drum just drag onshoes, then back steady posts out one-half number of turns counted and tighten the lock nuts. Reinstall brake drum cover and rear wheels when adjustment is completed.
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