pto gearbox seals

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mathias1
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pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

Seems like there are 2 or more options for the PTO gearbox seal.

option 1 seal with double lip,
option 2 single lip seals put with their back together (same size of shaft)
option 3: singe lips seals, but with different size of shaft

Today I have been working on my Super 4 and I found out I have the wrong seal.
It would be interesting at what year/model the changed the seals.

The double lip seal I have has an inside diameter of app 44mm. I found 2 single lip seals in the Pto dropbox with an internal diameter of app 54mm.

What I thought to be an easy job (did it before on my super major), seems to be a long job with a lot of problems:

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What an engineering: try to get it out of there!

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Notice the short shaft in the picture, this is part of a reduction gearbox (don't know if this is a county one or howard). When taking out the pto shaft, this stays in place.. So a lot of fiddling to have it disconnected.

Image
The 2 different seals.
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henk
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by henk »

New to me also. Never heard of any changes.
Would be nice if grumpy grandpa could shine a light on this.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

DirkieJ
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by DirkieJ »

Good morning and thanks for the add.

I am also struggling with this PTO seal but manged to get the original part number. the correct size is 89x44.5x19 - part no E1ADKN7297A for the double lip seal.

Here in South Africa it is very difficult to get parts, but me manage

Emiel
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

I’ve a parts manual from early 1961. Mid month serial no. from January is in there printed the last. Rest of the months are open.

There are two types mentioned. The E1ADKN-7297-A as mentioned by Dirky. This double lip one is stated as “52/- and the other one is E1ADKN-7297-B, which is single lip and back in the day was sold in pairs.

A increased diameter might be found on newer tractors I suppose. With the ratio change on the later supers and increase of HP the torque on the shaft was higher so a larger diameter makes sense. Did although not find evidence for this theory thus far. Will post when I find that.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Emiel
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by Emiel »

More infos in this topic

viewtopic.php?p=17939
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

Emiel,

I will check the pto box, but I'm pretty sure I used the 44,5 seal on my new performance major.
Maybe the pto box installed is a different one. I will check this out.
I might have a spare pto box of a NP to compare.
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shepp
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by shepp »

This is a topic that the parts suppliers do not make clear as well!

All the Major, Power Major, and blue/orange Super Major PTO auxiliary drive gearboxes
use two single lip 89mm O/D by 54mm I/D seals fitted back to back with the sealing lip and spring of the front one facing forwards and sealing the gearbox oil, and the sealing lip and spring of the rear one facing rearwards and sealing the rear axle oil.

The New Performance Super Major PTO auxiliary drive gearbox uses the one double lip
seal which is 89mm O/D by 44.5mm I/D. The main output drive shaft reduces diameter at an earlier point on these gearboxes compared to the earlier gearboxes.

It is a struggle to drive the double lip seal over the shaft on the earlier gearboxes, which should forewarn you, but some people have mistakenly fitted this seal to the early gearboxes only to have to strip it down again when the seal lips shred and fit the correct single lip seals back to back.
Last edited by shepp on Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Emiel
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

You're right Shepp. And it is confusing. This is what I found in the manual.

An improved P. T.O. driven gear is being jitted to all Major tractors built after engine number 08C960337.Thisgear is receiving an improved form of heat treatment and in addition the number of teeth have been increased from 2,6 to 32. As the new gear is not interchangeable with that used previously the 26 tooth gear will continue to be serviced for previous tractors.

To permit the fitting of a larger, improved type of oil seal the portion of the shaft immediately behind the bearing location has been decreased in diameter. For service, the new P.T.O. shaft and oil seal together replace the shaft and seal fitted to tractors built prior to engine number 08C 960337 and they must befitted as a pair when replacing a shaft in a previous type P.T.O. gearbox. The previous oil seal, but not the shaft, will be retained for servicing previous Major tractors.


For as far as I can see the new part no for this seal is E1ADDN 7297A which in modern language is NH 81805050.

Rgds

Emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

henk
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by henk »

According to this list it sould be sparex 81717958 Fordson E1ADDN7297B. 89 x 54 x 12.5
http://at.sparex.com/catalogue_pdfs/cat ... 045021.pdf page 211
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

Emiel
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by Emiel »

I think sparex mixed up. Old no. For new part and old part new number. They state the dimensions so one can order the right one.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

I find this a very interesting topic. The new performance major has some special secret features 8)
I dig out the spare new performance pto box I've got and made some pictures next to the normal one.
Have fun (the rusty one is the NP drop box)!
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We are working on the mainsite, and this discussion could be a nice article on there :thumbs:
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shepp
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by shepp »

Hi Emiel and mathias

In practice I doubt that anyone will come across an earlier PTO gearbox that has had the later shaft fitted during a rebuild, because during a blow up of the earlier PTO gearbox the shaft was not usually damaged, it was the actual casting and the gears that took the damage.

The pictures of the earlier PTO gearbox and the New Performance gearbox posted by mathias show that the New Performance gearbox is a much sturdier piece of kit with a much heavier casting that was nearly 50mm bigger in diameter where it met up to the underside of the main gearbox. The main gearbox itself had a larger opening to take the new casting and the main gearbox case itself was also much heavier and stronger than the earlier models. Hence the cases and units of the later models are not interchangeable with the earlier models.

When you look at the New Performance case you will notice that it is deeper to accommodate the larger driven gear that is on the bottom output shaft where the seal in question is located, this larger gear now had 32 teeth instead of the 26 teeth on the earlier gear and was the main factor in the change in the PTO drive ratios that gave a PTO speed of 540 rpm at an engine speed of 1473 rpm on the New Performance tractor. Note also the two lugs that carry the intermediate shaft and gear have been significantly strengthened with bigger webs to support them, and therein is another of the main reasons for the new heavier PTO gearbox on the New Performance tractors. The earlier Major, Power Major and blue/orange Super Major tractors ran at 1200 engine rpm to provide 540 rpm at the PTO shaft, and the horsepower delivered at the shaft at 540 rpm was only about 32hp. The engine developed peak torque at 1200 rpm, that is why that speed was chosen. This was fine in the early days when PTO driven implements were mainly mowers and trailed combines that required only low horsepower, but as forage harvesters, rotavators and rotary muckspreaders appeared and balers began to be more and more PTO driven and not engine driven then the shortcomings in the early PTO system were exposed. With shafts and gears running at low rpm the torque stresses in the shafts and gears were significant as were the shear stresses in the case castings. In addition with the engine running at only 1200 rpm it was difficult for the governor, particularly the vacuum type, to maintain a steady engine speed. What used to happen was that in work the engine used to drop speed and then surge, particularly when baling, and this further added to the torque stresses on the shafts and gears and shear stresses on the castings.

Sometimes under conditions of constant extreme load or surging load the two lugs carrying the intermediate gear and shaft on the early PTO gearboxes would shear off allowing the shaft and gear to become loose. This usually ended up damaging the PTO drive gears and the lower drive gears in the main gearbox. but the lower shaft where the oil seals were fitted usually escaped damage. So this shaft could be re-used if the PTO unit was rebuilt into a new case. The later version of the official workshop manual for the tractors in the PTO section, when outlining the changes that had taken place with the PTO on the introduction of the New Performance tractor, also had advice on the earlier PTO system as fitted to Major, Power Major and blue/orange Super Major tractors, stating that: " On tractors prior to engine number 08C960337, it is recommended that maximum power output be utilised only under steady load conditions". In other words avoid surging loads and extreme constant loads. Ford was aware of the issue over gearbox casting failures on the early PTO gearboxes, but I should hasten to add that gearboxes were not blowing up left right and centre! However occasional failures were encountered.

The New Performance tractor eliminated these weaknesses by having the engine run at 1473 rpm to deliver 540 rpm at the shaft. This allowed the engine to deliver more of the horsepower that it already had and increased the PTO horsepower at 540 rpm to a genuine 42.5 h p as opposed to barely 32 h p on the previous model. In addition, with the increased engine speed and minimec governor the engine was able to hold to a steady speed without surging. The PTO drive gears in the New Performance PTO gearbox and bottom drive gears in the New Performance main gearbox had the ratios changed to accomplish this change, and in addition the gears and shafts had different hardening treatments to make them much stronger. With the larger gear now on the PTO unit bottom output shaft this allowed all the other gears and shafts before it to run at higher rpm thus reducing the torque stresses on those gears and shafts and also shear stresses in the castings. The PTO drive extension tube was increased in diameter by one eight of an inch which was about 3mm, and the size of the PTO selector shaft was increased. The number of teeth on the hydraulic pump drive gear on the PTO extension tube and on the hydraulic pump itself were changed to allow for the fact that at any given engine speed the PTO shaft would now be running slower than previously and a change of ratios was needed to keep pump output up to scratch. These changes, along with the massively strengthened PTO gearbox and main gearbox castings, eliminated (at a late stage in the life of the Major!) what had been a weakness in the original design, and made the New Performance tractor a very useable tractor for PTO work.

With the engine now running at nearly 1500 rpm for PTO work the rear diff ratio was changed from 3.5:1 to 4.375:1, this change is in direct proportion to the change in engine revs for PTO work from 1200 rpm to nearly 1500 rpm. With the original main gearbox ratios this would have made the forward speeds at 1500 rpm with the revised diff ratio of 4.375:1 the same as what they originally were at 1200 rpm with the earlier diff ratio of 3.5:1, however in addition to the change in the diff ratio the ratio of every gear except 5th in the New Performance main gearbox was also changed to give a spread of speeds that was much better suited to PTO work. This did not suit everyone and every type of use, so after a while the original diff ratio of 3.5:1 was made available as an option on a new tractor at no extra cost. The revised main gearbox ratios remained however, you could not specify the original gearbox ratios as an option on the New Performance tractor.

At a late stage in it's life the Major became the accomplished PTO performer that it could have been at the beginning! My own New Performance Super, apart from working for fun my classic MF 703, NH Super 68 and 268 balers, can also make my NH 940 really perform on the odd time we now use it without any effort on the part of the tractor, and is really enjoyable to use.
Last edited by shepp on Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Emiel
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by Emiel »

Thanks shepp for sharing your knowledge. Interesting to read.

Even on of the best tractors ever could be improved ;)
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

Interesting story shepp.
As far as i can see, the connection between the pto shaft and the axle in the box is the same. The only difference on the pto shaft will be the gear for the hydraulic pump
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shepp
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by shepp »

Hi mathias

On the New Performance tractor the PTO extension tube, which runs from the PTO gearbox to the rear end of the tractor and has a female coupling at the gearbox end and the standard one and three eights of an inch six spline PTO shaft at the rear of the tractor, is in fact one eight of an inch bigger in diameter to accommodate the extra horsepower now being transmitted. The hydraulic pump drive gears on the shaft and on the hydraulic pump itself have a different number of teeth to allow for the fact that the PTO shaft is now running slower at any given engine speed in comparison with the earlier tractors, and so the pump drive ratios had to be changed to keep hydraulic pump output up to the mark at any given engine speed.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

I have it now all back together.
Working on the big list of all the places it can leak... Working my way starting at the back to the front. Next will be the outgoing shaft of the gearbox.
The most difficult ones will be the ones between gearbox and engine, I will have to take out the engine with a engine crane. I hope it can lift the big 6pot engine :eyes:
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by henk »

PICTURES Mathias!!!!!
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

henk wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:20 pm
PICTURES Mathias!!!!!
Will do Henk, will do. I got it almost together this evening, but couldn't get the rear axle aligned with the gearbox. So will have to try tomorrow again. I did make some pictures of the Howard reduction box. Quite interesting to see.
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mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

Henk,

Here are some pictures to replace the seal on the outgoing gearbox axle.
The tractor was delivered new with a 6:1 reduction box.
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AdrianNPMajor
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Informative thread, and excellent exposition by Shepp.

henk
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by henk »

Thanks :clap:
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

mathias1
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Re: pto gearbox seals

Post by mathias1 »

Well, i got it back together this weekend, still lots of stuff to bolt on. I hope to finish this during the next week.
I think I will do the ingoing seals during summer. 2 "major" problems there:
the live drive clutch isn't working and there's an oil leak between engine and gearbox.

It's itching to use the tractor and go for a little work out.
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County Super 4 built on the Fordson Super Major
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