Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

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edhopwood
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Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Hello folks,
I have a Simms fuel Pump on my mid 50's 4D engine (in my boat) The engine has always 'hunted' a bit in idle and under load to a certain extent and yesterday after using the engine for 45 mins, I turned off for a while and when re-starting the revs were unusually high- almost as if the idle screw had been adjusted . I checked the screw and it was fine but engine revving way to high ( it did still respond to throttle and go up and down but overall revs much more)
I stopped engine and tried to re-start but wouldn't fire although engine over turning fine.

I've been told it's the mechanical version of Pump- engine estimated 1954 but it's an industrial engine so no records.

Time for a fuel-pump rebuild maybe? There's actually a place near to me that can do this.

any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Many thanks Ed

mathias1
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by mathias1 »

I will move this to the fordson new major forum.
I think your pump is the vacuum governed one. Since the later mechanical one did came on the late super major some where in 1962.
Can you post a picture of your pump to be sure?
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edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Hello there.

Thanks for your response.
It’s actually been confirmed in a previous post after posting pics that it’s an early Simms pump with mechanical Governor and not very common apparently as the engine is an industrial one. I’ll post a photo shortly though.

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Trying to post photos but not sure how on here.

ok, I've just checked and pump has no oil in it. I've replaced it a while back but didn't check before this trip- silly me:(

I've also just read that these pumps ( mine being an early mechanical one) leak over time and need to be checked regularly. Buggar- wish I'd seen that before.

I'm guessing that I've probably seriously damaged the pump- any opinions greatly appreciated.

thanks Ed







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henk
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by henk »

Try this Ed.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5024

I know the vacuum governed pump needs no oil it uses the leak diesel to grease. Don't know if your pump needs oil.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Thanks but mine is early mechanical one.

Ed

SvendH
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by SvendH »

If you have mecanical pump try removeing the side cover held by 2 nuts, check that the pump rack moves smoothly back and forth. If not spray liberally whith aerosol lubricant and free it up.
Dont get any dirt into pump. :D

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Ok I’ll take a look, should I be able to move it by hand?

SvendH
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by SvendH »

Yes it must move easy,when you take the cover off the rack should be pulled to one side by the governor.Grab it with 2 fingers and pull it to the other side,let go and it should snap back where it was.Try it at both full throttle and idle setting, the rack must not stick.
All this with engine shut down.

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Thank you.
My side cover actually has 8 screws but I’m guessing that’s still what you are referring to.
It’s a flat plate on the side of the pump behind the lift pump

Emiel
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by Emiel »

Yes, that’s the one you need to remove.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

shepp
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by shepp »

Hi, interesting problem and topic!

Sounds like you have an industrial engine fitted with a Simms injection pump with either a GV or a GM mechanical governor. The pump itself was basically the original SPA pump with the excess fuel button and fuel cut off lever located at the front of the pump where the vacuum governor would usually be located and operating on the control rack at that point, and a mechanical governor located at the rear of the pump in a large housing where the excess fuel and fuel cut off lever are normally located and operating on the control rack at that point. The centrifugal governor is driven off the pump camshaft and operates on the fuel rack to increase or decrease fueling as required by the load on the engine. It was a much more sensitive governor than the vacuum type which was the only other type available in those early days before the arrival of the Minimec pump in May 1962.

The earlier type was the GV and there will be an identification plate showing the pump type and the pump governed speed range - GVA 350/750 indicates a pump governed speed of 350 to 750 rpm which means an engine speed of 700 to 1500 rpm as the pump speed is half the engine speed, and GVA 350/900 indicates a pump speed of 350 to 900 rpm and engine speed of 700 to 1800 rpm.

The later type is the GM governor, this has three different governed engine speed ranges of 500 to 1500 rpm, 500 to 1800 rpm, and 500 to 2250 rpm, and the plate will indicate the build. The differences in governed speeds are attained by having different sized weights and different spring ratings on the governor assembly.

You are correct to say that this type of governor does require separate correct specification oil lubrication, and the large filler/level plug on the governor housing at the side for the GV pump and at the rear for the GM pump is where the oil level should be up to. In fact it is important to be aware that ALL pumps require oil lubrication INCLUDING the vacuum governed type. It is a fallacy to believe that the vacuum governed pump does not need oil for lubrication as it runs in or relies on diesel leak off from the pumping elements for it's lubrication, this is NOT the case, refer to the official Simms service data or the official Ford workshop manual which tells you how to refill with clean engine oil using the leak off level banjo bolt hole as a filler/level hole after the vacuum governed pump has been removed and replaced. The Minimec pump has a separate oil drain off plug, a separate oil level plug, and a separate oil filler plug, the GV and GM governed pumps have a combined filler and oil level plug - think OIL for all 3 types of pump INCLUDING the vacuum governed type!
If the pump HAS been running at a low oil level it is possible some damage or seizure has occurred in the governor components. If the engine will not start up now it is possible that the fuel control rack has stuck in its bushes at the nil fuel position when you stopped it. I would fill the governor housing up to the correct oil level with clean engine oil, try to start and run the engine and see if anything has improved. If not, take off the 8 bolts holding the pump side cover plate and spray the pumping elements and the rack including the bushes at each end of the rack with WD40 or a good quality penetrating oil. Operate manually the fuel cut off lever continuously backwards and forwards whilst doing this, you should see the rack moving from maximum to minimum fueling position. If the rack is stuck in the nil fuel position you might need to carefully free it by hand or with a screwdriver or pair of pliers. Keep spraying and operating the cut off lever until everything appears to be freely moving - it is likely that if there has been a lack if lubrication the rack might have been sticking at some points in it's bushes. When everything is free oil the components with clean engine oil from a pump type can whilst still operating the fuel cut off lever and re-fit the side cover and start the engine.

If this has not cured the problem then it is likely that some damage had been caused to the governor components due to lack of oil, and a strip down of the governor will be needed, this can be done without having to strip the pump down completely, however if the pump is off and at a competent fuel injection service centre I would strongly recommend that you have the pump calibration and phasing checked at the same time as the governor is repaired. I think however the issue will be a sticking fuel rack due to lack of lubrication and possibly a bit of moisture ingress.
Last edited by shepp on Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Hello,
Thanks very much for taking the time to write such a detailed response. This is very helpful.
Interesting to hear the history of the different pumps too- now the picture is clearer.

I’ll give this a try and see how it goes.

Cheers. Ed

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Hello there,
I've managed to take a look inside the pump and have a video Link- https://youtu.be/yMGfFl0Smi4

The mechanism(rack??) inside moves freely although it does seem like the nut from one of the 4 bolts has come loose-as you can see on video.
It also looks like the linkage around where throttle cable is attached seems loose although I don't know if this is unusual or not.

Should the rack move when I move throttle revs up and down? because it doesn't currently.


On the up side, I've found a specialist place nearby that seems to be able to re-con it.
I understand that there's timing marks I need to pay attention too when removing the pump and it's very important?
Any advice on this matter greatly appreciated.

many thanks Ed

terry82
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by terry82 »

Glad to see people posting videos. Great idea.

Were you moving the throttle up and down with the engine on or off? I believe the rack should move side to side in response to throttle commands when the engine is running.

I timed my engine to the pump and it didnt help the problems I had that much. How much can those timing marks on the pump and coupling be trusted to be accurate over 60 years?

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Yes the engine was off when moving throttle.

Did you get your pump re-built then?

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

I've just found this fordson.se/2A_Br%E4nslesystem_mm_Suplem ... 01-030.pdf

I'm guessing that if my engineer follows the instructions for the Mk I engine when removing pump I should be ok?

henk
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by henk »

There are two ways to mount the pump. If it is on time, the engine will start. If the engine does not start, the pump is turned 180 degrees. Best is to make a mark with a center punch befor removing.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

Emiel
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

The injection pump turns at halve speed of crankshaft. There is a possibility that the pump looks like mounted right, but the injection is at tdc exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke.

My advice is to NOT TURN THE ENGINE when the pump is off. If you then dit it in the same position as it came off, ( use Henk’s centermark idea or a lick of paint) the engine should run.

I once fitted a allis b magneto 360 degrees wrong. That was a steep learning curve when I look back. Stripped the complete engine to find this mistake which could be easily fixed.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Ok many thanks.

Excuse my complete ignorance when it comes to engineering, but are you advising I should make a mark on part of the pump that corresponds with a position on the engine before I remove pump- this is because the pump will undoubtedly turn when it’s off the engine and could go back in the wrong position?? ( and not too turn the engine at all when pump is off)

henk
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by henk »

@emiel,

Luckely we learn from oure folds.

Bin there done that. :cry: :curse: :eyes: :scratchhead: :roll: :oops: :cry: :x :( :shock: :? :lol: :) :D
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

SvendH
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by SvendH »

Ed
As Henk says it would be a good idear to mark the two halves of the pump clutch before removal.
Then when the time comes to reinstall the pump, simply ensemble the clutch so the marks line up again.

SvendH
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by SvendH »

One more thing,
You must not undo the two nuts on the clutch, these are for ajusting timing. Just pull the the pump out out of its place when all bolts are removed.

edhopwood
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by edhopwood »

Ok thanks for your advice! I’m starting to feel more confident about attacking it.

shepp
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Re: Suspected Fuel Pump trouble

Post by shepp »

Hello again

The video you have posted shows where the problem lies. This is a GV governor. The hub that you are twisting, which is called a buffer plate in the official manuals, is connected to a control rod by a roll pin which you can see in the end of the hub. The control rod passes through the centre of the control lever, which has the throttle cable attached to it, and into the governor housing where it is attached to and works on the internal mechanisms. This control rod is not directly attached to the control lever. When the throttle cable moves the control lever this action is transmitted to the hub and hence to the control rod by a circular torsion spring that is enclosed within the hub, that is why you cannot see it. One tag end of this spring buts up against a lug on the control lever, the other tag end buts up against a lug on the hub and there is a slight pre-load on the spring. When the control lever moves the action is transmitted through the spring to the hub and control rod to change the governor/throttle setting. You can see the tag end of the spring sticking out behind the hub and moving away from the lug on the control lever in the video. This should not happen, the tag end should always be in pressure contact with the lug. This suggests to me that either the spring has broken or the tag end has been able to slip past the lug. Whichever is the case movement of the control lever is not being transmitted to the hub and control rod, hence the lack of control of engine revs and throttle opening.

You can see the rack within the pump moving when you twist the hub backwards and forwards, this suggests that everything within the governor housing and pump might be OK.

With regard to the loose screw you mention to the front of the camshaft chamber, if this is the securing screw for the first pumping element control fork then this might allow the control fork to move on the control rack resulting in the fueling to that element changing when the element is running. This requires attention.

With regard to timing, the video shows that the timing plate adjacent to the drive shaft is in place, this plate has a scribe line on it and there is a scribe line on the pump drive flange. When the pump is first assembled new and at evey subsequent time the pump is re-calibrated and has the phasing checked and re-set then the "internal timing" of the pump as it were is set to when these lines on the plate and drive flange are in alignment. As the pump wears in use the amount of fuel delivered and the delivery point changes for each element in the pump. This is why theses pumps need to be periodically recalibrated and have the phasing checked and re-set, say every four to five thousand hours. You often see complaints from subscribers that they have set the pump to flywheel timing by the book but are still getting smoke or bad starting or uneven running problems. This Is because due to normal wear in use the "internal timing and delivery settings" of the pump have changed and the scribe marks on the timing plate and drive hub are not meaningful. In the days when diesel engines were fitted with in-line pumps of all makes - Simms, CAV etc - it was a routine matter to have the pump recalibrated and the phasing checked and re-set to the timing marks on the plate and flange, for example if the engine needed a top end overhaul the opportunity would be taken to have the pump recalibrated and phased.

The fault on the governor throttle lever could probably be done without removing the pump, but the loose screw needs the pump to be taken to a specialist. If you take the pump to a competent service centre they will check it out. If all the major components such as the pumping elements are good they will repair the throttle spring, then recalibrate the pump whilst securing the loose fork screw, and set the phasing up to coincide with the timing marks in the timing plate and drive flange. It will then be a simple matter of refitting the pump and timing the injection point to the flywheel as per the manual. Oh, and keep the oil level up to the mark!

By the way there is an identical pump on EBay at present, 182613784204, you can see that there is a cover on this one over the hub assembly which is missing on your pump.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

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