Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Post Reply
JGLea
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:38 pm

Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by JGLea »

Hello all.

I noticed that when I push my NPSM with the engine off by hand that it sounds like something is meshed. The lever is in neutral and all the brakes are off etc etc. I’m new to fordsons so I’m unsure if it’s supposed to sound like this. I’ve also noticed significant whining in high range with less in low range, whereby it is particularly loud in 5th. I’ve had the gear selection fork plate off the side and the inspection plate off the other side and all the gears look fine. I understand the gears are straight cut and it’s 60 years old, however, the noise just seems excessive.

Emiel
True Blue
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:22 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Noise is always difficult to judge when you can’t hear it. Whining is usually not really an issue, unless you hear a bearing becoming really bad.
What kind of oil is in the box? Can you compare to another tractor?

Rgds
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

henk
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Site Governance Team & Expert Team
Posts: 2069
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:56 pm
Location: Arnemuiden, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by henk »

First check the oil level from the gearbox. Behind the clutch pedal.
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

JGLea
Not Quite Blue Yet
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:38 pm

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by JGLea »

Hi there, oil level is obviously fine. I have 30 UTO in it at the mo. I just happened to have it lying around so used it instead of 90 gear oil and fordson appear to recommend it over 90 anyway. However, I’m sure the oil choice won’t quieted down this whine. Tah

Billy26F5
True Blue
Posts: 1912
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:01 am
Location: On Billy

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by Billy26F5 »

There are always gears in mesh, and they're spur gears, so expect a good whine. It also depends on which gear you're in, as each one has a different sound. As for oil, the original spec was SAE 20HD winter SAE 30HD summer in the engine and air filters, SAE 90 everywhere else. With the advent of universal oils, in July 1959, they changed the spec to use universal SAE 20HD winter SAE 30HD summer everywhere except the steering box which continued as SAE 90. My advice is to stick to the original spec and only use the new one in the rear axle if the hydraulics don't work properly with SAE 90.
Sandy
ImageImageImage

Emiel
True Blue
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:22 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

A 30 uto is perfectly fine. A 90 will not provide beter lubrication. No need to change.

Try to compare the sound with another tractor.

Does this sound appear with engaged pto? In found the pto box of a fsm I take care off quite noisy. All debris collects there and it’s bearings where damaged.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

shepp
True Blue
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:24 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by shepp »

As everyone says, with a combination of spur gears and probably twenty to thirty thousand hours use you are bound to get some transmission noise in the old Majors. The original oil seals in the PTO gearbox also fail after a while and this allows oil to drain from the gearbox housing, which is at a higher level than the rear axle, into the rear axle housing. This reduces the lubrication of the gears and bearings higher up in the main gearbox to what they can get from oil splash as the gearbox runs, which is possibly not enough to prevent premature wear. As tractors are passed on from the initial operators to subsequent owners, to whom " maintenance" sounds like a dirty and expensive word, tractors will have been run with low and rarely checked gearbox oil levels for years.

A further source of noise from these transmissions is from the bull pinion shafts and gears, usually in the form of a constant grumble or drone or deep " whine". If you have seen the DVD on the Doe tractors, you may remember the Doe engineer saying that they only used to get about 4,000 hours out of the Triple D before the bull pinion shafts and gears had to be swapped over - left to right assemblies - this provided unworn faces on the shafts and bull gears for forward travel, and enabled them to get about another 3,000 hours out of a set of bull pinion shafts and gears before they had to be renewed. These tractors were used exclusively for heavy draft work and the strain on the bull pinion shafts and bull gears was considerable, and what used to happen was that the case hardening on the shaft and gear faces used to wear off which could cause hydraulic problems if the swarf got into the hydraulic pump and system. It was possible to simply swap over the shafts and gears in the Power Major based units, but the Super Major units would have needed a new right hand bull pinion shaft with the drilling for the diff lock push rod, the old right hand shaft had the drilling sealed with a blob of weld and was fitted to the left hand side. If anyone has a Major or Power Major with a noisy back end it may be worth taking a leaf out of Doe's book and trying this fix.

This reminds me about a 1961 Super Major that was bought in together with an MF 35 and a DB 990 in 1971. We had a man who used to buy tractors in the arable east side of the country that had done some work but were usually very clean and well maintained, and we would buy tractors off him on description. These would come in straight from the main dealers or sometimes auction sales , onto the wagon and rolled off in our yard. This tractor had come from a collective auction sale and if ever there was a tractor that was a good example of why tractors were put into sales with no batteries or flat batteries this was it. I seem to remember that it stood us at about £150 delivered so we were expecting some issues, it showed 5,000 odd hours but had obviously gone round the clock once. When started it had a noisy big end and there were no hydraulics or PTO operating. A crank regrind, new oil pump and new rings had the engine up to scratch. The clutch appeared fine, so the next thing to check was the PTO gearbox and this had the intermediate gear and shaft lugs broken off which I have referred to in other articles. A unit from a breaker sorted that issue out. It probably then stood us at about £220 plus some labour, parts were a lot different then than today, a 4 cylinder crankshaft regrind was about £6 and a set of bearings and a set of rings a similar amount each, and a full set of original Hepolite pistons, rings and liners was only about £19 for a full engine set.

A man from Derbyshire who was a contractor spreading lime arrived to have a look at it and was duly impressed. " Is it a growler lad?" asked the potential buyer. Now that was the first time I had heard that phrase and so I asked him to explain. " A lot of these Fordson Majors become noisy in the transmission bull pinion shafts and bull gears, and when you are travelling at speed under heavy load on the road they growl at you" he replied. I said I did not think it was a " growler" but the best thing to do was to take the tractor and try it, and if it did not suit then to bring it back for a refund. After a few days he rang back and said ".... Growl? You can hardly hear yourself think when you are on the road! Have you got anything else, I' m struggling to find anything?". I said we had a very nice MF 65 just come in with ground drive PTO, ideal for the lime spreading job but obviously more money. " Standard or multi?" came the response. When I said it was multi power he replied very much in the negative! Today, of course, all the collectors want the multi power.

Anyway we let him keep using the tractor until he had found something else, the tractor was returned, we parted on very good terms, and the tractor found a new home with a smallholder who was highly delighted with it and obviously did not need to travel at speed on the road. Sometimes, when I am drifting into sleep, " growler" runs through my mind...............
Last edited by shepp on Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

AdrianNPMajor
True Blue
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Listen to this. Filter out the exhaust note and you'll hear the transmission whine.
Much more noticeable when you're sitting on the seat.
This is basic engineering that was built to last.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxaQlWlNVTw

AdrianNPMajor
True Blue
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

At the end of the video you can hear the hydraulic pump making numerous corrections. Some corrections are normal, but these were too frequent.
I had a problem with a leaking unloading valve plug. Problem became more pronounced as oil became thinner through work. Oil in question was & is Morris AG 90, used in both gearbox & rear axle. Best choice, imho. This oil was as thin as hydraulic oil half an hour into ploughing.

shepp
True Blue
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:24 pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by shepp »

Basic engineering that was built to last is exactly right Adrian. The fact that these transmissions can withstand decades of hard work and usually some neglect over maintenance, and then have someone shove around 700 to 800 horsepower on the front of them for tractor pulling and perform without any problems says it all.

My E27N has more than it' s fair share of transmission noise, but I am lucky with the other 3 Majors, the 52 Major had just the one owner until 2014 and had been laid up inside in the early 1970's by his daughters after the death of it's owner and has clocked only 4210 hours and is virtually unworn throughout and beautifully quiet in the transmission. The Power and NP Super Major both came off a contractor neighbour who bought them new, both fitted with Bamford mid mounted mowers, I remember them coming new and have known them since new, in fact I have the original sales invoices and documentation with them both, all they have ever done is mow grass and bale hay and most of that stopped in the mid 1960's when everyone switched to silage. I have owned them for many years now, again very low hours with 2550 on the Power Major and 4240 on the NP, so virtually unworn and very quiet in the transmission. But we have bought and sold and owned many noisy Majors and they never gave any trouble!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Hair Bear
True Blue
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:06 am

Re: Meshed gear noise when being pushed in neutral.

Post by Hair Bear »

The final drive on there creatures is a slightly unusual arrangement. The diff isn't in the back axle! It's actually between the brake shafts, then there is a reduction gear each side driving the halfshafts, that's the best way I can explain it (I'm sure someone else can do better!). There is a good vid on youtube showing a back end being run without the top on, demonstrating the location of the diff and the reduction, this arrangement also partly explains why the diff doesn't detonate when show pulling.
So when you move the machine by hand you would expect to turn the wheels, diff, and gearbox output shaft - but - on these it's wheels, reduction gears (now a step up), brake shafts, diff, gearbox output shaft. I wouldn't be overly concerned.
Our Allis B had the reduction in the axle portal each side and that made all sorts of gear noises when being towed.
You're supposed to eat greens, not drive 'em!

Post Reply