Super Major Pump Timing

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:52 pm

Hi everyone, I got my starter back today (Diesel Electro in Norwich) done an awesome job on it, ended up costing £100 but well worth it as she turns over really well now but i think that i might have the pump timing wrong as im getting a bit of white smoke but it's not firing.

I looked through the manual to set it up but im not sure whether valve 1 was coming up on compression stroke when i set it.

should valve 1 be closed?
What is the correct way to set this?
Can the pump be out of time with the timing marks on the pump lining up? i.e. even though those marks line up can the pump be out of time by 360 degrees or something?

sorry for stupid questions but i have never done this before.
P.s. Its a simms pump with the diaphragm in.

JC · Post by JC » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:10 pm

Chris,
If someone has had the injector pump off, they could have put the coupler together 180 deg. off. When the timing marks are lined up on the pump and coupler, the bolt that holds the front half of the coupler on the shaft should be under the shaft. If its on the top, its wrong.
When you are on the compression stroke on no.1 cylinder, both valves will be closed (up). You will be able to move the rocker arms a little on both valves. If you are on the exhaust stroke, the front valve will be down and you will not be able to move the rocker arm.

Don't worry about asking "stupid" questions. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:20 pm

Thanks for he reply, i have checked the timing again the way that you said and im still getting a puff of white smoke on every revolution but not starting..

I am correct in thinking that it is 23 degrees for super major arnt i?
it hasnt had the coupling removed from the pump.

the only other thing that has changed is new valves but i set them to 0.12 and 0.15 on intake and exhaust so it should be correct.

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:31 am

Where are Brian and Kev when you need them lol....
I have still got nothing but a little bit of white smoke

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:36 am

The timing is 21 degres if you have Minimec and 19? I think with the spe pump. After a proper airbleeding push the coldstart putton in and start.

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:26 pm

is an spe pump the simms pump?

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:45 pm

I look at one of your pictures and you have the older pump that has the timing at 19 degree, but this is read in an Trader manual so I don´t know is it is the same on Majors.

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:57 pm

Thanks for your reply.

I have just tried it at 19 and its the same story (white smoke but no go) is it normal for them to suck a little bit through the exhaust manifold?

it is blowing hard out of the exhaust but it sucks a little on every revolution, the inlet manifold is sucking very hard.

Mike Kuscher · Post by **Mike Kuscher** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:04 pm

Chris,
Look at the 'announcement' that Brian has placed at the top of the 'Major' topics.

Mike

JC · Post by JC » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:04 pm

Chris,
Have you bled the fuel system since you put the engine back together?

Grani,
Is 19 deg. the timing specification for the 590E with the vacuum governor? It must be a little different than the Major engine.

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:21 pm

Hi, thanks for replies.

Yeah i have blead it several times and im getting spurts of diesel out of the pipes which go to the injectors when cranking it over but still just white smoke.

I have looked at Brians announcement but I am not sure which mark my engine is?

serial starts 161 from memory.

would it run if the valves were not adjusted exactly spot on?
as i have set them but im running out of ideas as to what is up with it.

All that has changed since she last ran is a new head gasket and new valves / valve springs and everything has been removed for cleaning and painting,the diesel pump couplers have been left exactly as they were when i removed the diesel pump from the tractor.

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:27 pm

JC wrote:
Grani,
Is 19 deg. the timing specification for the 590E with the vacuum governor? It must be a little different than the Major engine.

Yes but in my book the 4 cyl Trader allso has 19 deg. They are different then i think.

JC · Post by JC » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:35 pm

I forgot this in my last post.
4-stroke engines have "valve overlap". The intake and exhaust valves are both open at the same time, for a short time, to promote better scavenging. This can cause "sucking" at the exhaust at slow, cranking speeds.

Mike Kuscher · Post by **Mike Kuscher** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:39 pm

Grani,

Bear in mind, I am not 'the expert' here.
If you read Brians 'announcement' again, you will see that the Major only has the 19 degree setting for a short time and only with a thin steel gasket.
They then found that it was causing problems so, they replaced all the steel gaskets with thicker ones, of a different material, and advised everybody not to use 19 degrees anymore.

Brian has posted that information, and also the one about oils, so that everyone has a reference available, inside the Major forum.
With this in mind, and to keep his reference advice 'clean', I hope you dont mind if I move your reply, from Brians announcement, into this thread instead.
Just in case anyone gets confused later.

Chris,

Again, I am not 'the expert' but, white smoke = unburnt fuel.
With no firing and your valve clearances 'something like', I would suggest testing the 'spray' from each injector against some blotting paper.
If that's OK, then I'd suspect either pump coupling 180 degrees out, or, have the timing gears or chain been off and are they out?

Brian, we need help here

Mike

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:40 pm

aah i see, thanks for that. I was just concerned when i put my hand over the exhaust and felt sucking.

GRRRRR im getting angry now lol

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:09 pm

The smoke is a kind of grey colour, and there isnt that much of it really, the nozzles have not been removed as i couldnt get them off when the head was off and i didnt want to break anything. They have been gaffa taped up during shot blasting so i cant see that anything could of changed with them. I have had the nozzle pipes off and given them a gentle blow out to get any grime out.

The only thing that i can think is valves. These should be set by putting the feeler gauges between each rocker arm and the top of the valve using the rule of 9... Correct????

Post by **Brian** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:54 pm

Chris,

1 .. You have a Mark 3 engine in the Super.
2 .. Valves should be .012 exhaust with caps. .015 inlet without caps.
3 .. You must get the injectors out and see if they spray. If you had the head off and did not remove the injectors you may have damaged the tips. You can do that by just catching the tip on the bench or on the block when you refit the head.
4 .. Only a puff of smoke every rev. indicates you are not getting fuel into the engine. (Injectors or pump, you will only know when you see them spray).
5 .. Try a SMALL sqirt of starting fluid and see if she runs on that. It may be all you need.
6 .. Did you understand that the clamp bolt should be below the drive shaft when setting the timing? Check and check again. You may not have had the pump off but someone else might have. That is if you got a non runner. If it ran when you got it then it is all your fault!

7 .. Have you had the sideplate off the pump to see if you can move the rack?

Where are you? Send me a PM.

Meanderer · Post by **Meanderer** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:56 pm

Skateboss,
I *wince* when I say this ...
Brian has pointed out a number of times in the forums that when you take a head off with the injectors in place, you have to be very, very carefull not to place the head face down on anything because the injector tips protrude below the face very slightly and the tips are easily broken or damaged.
Something to ponder ....

JC · Post by JC » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:47 am

skateboss wrote:I am correct in thinking that it is 23 degrees for super major arnt i?
it hasnt had the coupling removed from the pump.

I just re-read that part of your post. You don't have to remove the coupling from the pump to get the timing off. If the pump or the engine has been moved while they were apart, its possible to assemble the two halves of the coupler 180 deg. from where they are supposed to be.

Here's another thing to check. If you have a compression release lever, is it in the released position?

Kiwi Kev · Post by **Kiwi Kev** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:12 am

I've been watching this thread for a while now and if I understand you correctly, the engine turns over(on the starter) but wont run. Does it fire at all, on any cylinders.

If you look closely at this photo of the coupling, and it's been mentioned a couple of times in the replies above, when the engine is on TDC No 1 cylinder, the bolt should be under the shaft.
Now if you remove the injector pump from the engine block, half of the coupling will stay with the injector pump, half will stay on the aux shaft(with the bolt under the shaft), and the fibre block will come off seperately.
As JC wrote, as I was trying to put this into words, you can still turn the injector pump half of the coupling 180 degrees, and it will still bolt up(and the bolt will still be under the shaft)

Other than that, you just have to work through every thing. Brian's list is a good place to start.
I am a bit worried that you mentioned shot blasting and injectors/ injector pumps, in the same post

Keep us informed and good luck
kiwi kev

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:10 am

thanks guys,

I will work through the list that Brian has kindly posted.

the pump has to be in time, as i turned the engine over to get valves 1 and 2 on the rock and then found 23 degrees on the flywheel and the timing marks on the pump came in line.

What is the best way to get the injectors out? as they are seriously stuck in there.
I have tried removing the injector pipes and undoing the 2 bolts that hold the injectors in but they did'nt want to budge.

She gives a bit of smoke but doesnt attempt to come into life.

She Does'nt have a decompression lever.

I will try and get a video and upload it to youtube and post the link.

Kiwi Kev · Post by **Kiwi Kev** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:49 am

To remove the injectors, you use a special tool.
Not hard to make.
It's like a bar with a tag welded on the end. The tag has a hole in it(approx 1/4" dia)and you loosely screw a bolt through the hole into the bleed off hole on top of the injector. You then need a packer to place between the bar and the rocker cover sealing area of the head. The packer is to get the angle right to be able to lever the injector out of the hole. You may have to use different size packers as the injector comes up out of the hole.
It will require a little bit of force to get it out, but should only be suction from the oil, holding it in the hole.
You may have to remove the pushrods to get them out. Can't quite remember.
I've got a picture somewhere of an original lever in one of my manuals. I'll see if I can find it for you, or maybe someone else will post it for me.
Injectors are very delicate things. The safest place for an injector is in the head,(providing the head is on the block) not lying on the workshop bench.
Some people will connect and test the injectors on the engine, but that is another story, and requires great "CARE and SAFETY"
A Garage or Diesel repair shop will test, repair and adjust them for you. Well worth the money.
Good Luck
Kiwi Kev

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:07 pm

aah, i might have found my problem.

When going to make a video i turned the engine round so that valves 1 and 2 are on the rock but the bolt is on the top of the coupling so i am guessing that im not on TDC but the only place that i can see the degree marks stamped into the flywheel is where it is set to now. GRRR

The front casing has not been removed so the valve timing has not been altered, both valves are closed.

Grani · Post by **Grani** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:12 pm

Did you ever mention the stamped engine serialnumber located near the first injection pipe? And the number on the pump SPE something?

skateboss · Post by **skateboss** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:16 pm

Grani wrote:Did you ever mention the stamped engine serialnumber located near the first injection pipe?

Engine: 1618244
Pump: 311624