Starter barely turns

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leeroy
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

It was john. Im thinking what I thought was a click was just an arc?
Anyhow I put the old solenoid back on and now have power on both sides of solenoid. I had tapped a few times w hammer while it was off.
Charging the battery now and am going to put starter back in and see where it goes.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

John b
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by John b »

Could be a sticking solenoid, if it still doesnt work use a screwdriver to join the 2 large posts together and see if the starter works, if it spins push the start lever and join the posts again and see if it starts. If it does the starter is good and the solenoid is bad. But make sure its out of gear and preferably someone has their foot on the clutch, just in case!
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

I would have the clutch pedal down anyway, as it gives less load on the starter. The horn is in the top right hand corner of the pic, here's what another one sounds like (it's very similar, but there is an increase in the note frequency when running, and even more at high revs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-MKbzo ... ndFordsons
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Hope you guys have patience for my lack of knowledge!
Put everything back together and when I went to put the positive cable on the battery in arched very badly.
It would not arc when I took the cable off the starter, so I decided to take the starter back off and check it again.
At first, connecting directly from battery did nothing. I spun the end and tried again and got it to repeatedly spin.
BUT- It sounds rough. ...and I don't now how easy it should spin, never have done starter diagnosis. Not sure what to look for internally either, and striking out on picture posting.
Would a starter ground out and cause that arcing?
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by John b »

Was the switch on when you reconnected the battery? If the starter was drawing a current when you connected the battery it will arc as it's pulling power from the battery as you make the connection. Disconnect the battery lead from the starter and see if you got voltage there when you connect the battery, it should be zero with the swith off
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

It shouldn't but if the temperature of the windings has been high enough it can cause a short. It should spin very easily when you move the lever forward, when you don't there's a brake lining holding back on you. Take the cover band off and inspect the brushes and wires, and their insulation.
Keep checking it carefully, also ensure you have a good battery for the test. Also check the solenoid is working properly, if it's not leave the starter for now.
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Sandy I think you were right with the solenoid being the culprit. The starter spins fine by hand and from cables.
I'll order the correct solenoid today.
Just to go over today's findings: both solenoids, and a third one I took off a unused hydraulic unit, have power to starter side with or without switch wired in. I assume this points to the three being no good.
The only question I have is: does the switch need to be hooked up and grounded as well?
The switch I've been testing with was not grounded.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

The switch connects the COIL terminal on the ignition switch with the negative terminal on the solenoid (no earth on it), to activate the solenoid. Try and use a switch that is operated by the starter linkage as the original one, but ensure it won't go on too early.
Your solenoids seem to be stuck on, I don't think it will be easy to fix that.
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Just to be clear, there is no ignition switch involved.
When we inherited the tractor with a land purchase, it had no usable wiring, and the switch was corroded badly.
We simply wired positive to frame, negative to top of solenoid.small wire on same post to toggle on dash. Other wire off toggle back to small post on solenoid. Generator not hooked up, as wires were clipped off.
We just keep battery charged and it will start many times a day with no issue. Eventually we'd like to get her wired up correctly, but for now this has worked well. Until it didnt :cry:
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

Here's the manual (wiring diagram on page 32):
http://www.fordson.se/7_El_Verkstadsmanual_191-224.pdf
Try and get the starter circuit done first, then do the charging circuit and leave the lights to the end.
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Thanks for the pdf Sandy.
You'll both be happy to hear Hyacinth is running again.
I had to keep trying. In the spot where she is housed there is a Ford 120 riding mower. Hadn't run it as of late, but figured it was worth trying what I was pretty sure was a good solenoid, that was identical to the one that had been on her. I suspect it's a Ford common to cars and trucks. Only difference was it had a short wire from one of the two short posts to the mounting hardware.
Keep in mind the one that was on it did not. First I wired it up without tat short wire, alas, no power to starter side. Put that wire in place, and had power!
I'm left wondering why and how the first one worked. The only thing different is that switch. The first one was grounded, the one in use now is not. I'm also thinking solenoids 2 and 3 would work if grounded.
So back to the day it happened, I assume I either left the switch on or bumped it on and that caused the solenoid to fail, but luckily, not the starter- sound right?
Last, I'd like to wire the switch on the starter itself to see if that works. Any tips on doing so?
Thanks again
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

Good work! Make sure the switch doesn't connect until the starter is in mesh with the flywheel.
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Thanks Sandy, I see that it the section of manual you sent.
Looks like I'd wire it the same as a switch, with wire coming off of battery post of solenoid up to that plunger switch, and then another wire from plunger back to small solenoid post. Please correct me if that's not the way to do it. I'm looking at the schematic and think that's how it's done.
Last edited by leeroy on Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by John b »

Glad to hear she's running again and without having to spend loads. The wiring is very simple, Sandy has all the info you'll need, and as he says as long as the starter switch is set to cut in after the starter gears have meshed all is good. Happy baling
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

If you have your manual switch already in I would leave it, as it then means when you get an ignition switch the wires are already there. Run the wire that now goes to the solenoid from the manual switch to the starter switch, and then take the other post on the starter switch to the solenoid negative terminal (where you now have the wire from the manual switch). You should get it like the diagram doing that, but without the ignition switch yet. The ignition switch will then replace the manual one you already have.
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

The manual switch I put in does not go to the dash. It was just meant for temporarily testing.
I'd really like to follow through with getting rid of the temporary switch and using the starter switch, even before I get an ignition switch. (Unless advised otherwise)
Only thing I'm not sure of is connecting wires to contact switch. There are no blade terminals, only two screws. Assuming you just put stripped wire in with screw?
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by John b »

Yes, there's a hole under the screw it the small post, run the feed wire into one terminal, then the other wire out from the other post to the solenoid. That should be it, no need for another switch as it only makes a connection when you press the starter lever. You will need a proper ignition switch when you finally wire it properly with the charging system but i'm sure you know all that by now!
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

leeroy
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Finally got it wired so the starter switch energizes as the starter lever is engaged. Nice to have a free hand.
Little by little we are getting Hyacinth back to original specs.
Thanks again!
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Billy26F5 wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:40 pm
Good work! Make sure the switch doesn't connect until the starter is in mesh with the flywheel.
Sandy
Hyacinth has grinded on the last start. Does the starter need to be removed to get the 1 7/16" adjustment correct? I guess what I'm asking is can there be damage from having it engage too late?
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

You should first try to move the switch forward, then see if you have better engagement. There will be damage, but it will only get serious if it's a recurring problem. The 1 7/16" clearance is for new undamaged parts only, you'll need more if there have been clashes.
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

Thanks Sandy . I'll report results.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

While I was only able to shift it forward 1/16"' it has resolved the meshing. Thanks again!
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by Billy26F5 »

Good work, just keep going, the reward is a superb Major as dependable as ever, and very enjoyable too!
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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

The contact starter switch seems like it is again engaging too soon. I was able to move it forward, probably 1/16". I thought that resolved it but it did it once again. I may take the starter out to have a look at the contact switch adjustment, the pinion/bendix, and the flywheel gears. Was thinking of going back to a switch or push button to see if that points to the contact switch being the culprit. Can they become so worn that they engage too early or too easy?
Thanks as always.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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Re: Starter barely turns

Post by leeroy »

A quick note: took Hyacinth out in the woods to do a trailer load of firewood. I did a quick inspection and brought all tools to both disconnect wires and jump main solenoid if it grinded again. Made sure the small screwdriver fit those two screw on the switch, and noticed the screws could be snugged up some. Not sure if coincedence but made many starts with no issue.
I still look forward to any advice on this issue.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

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