Super Major hydraulics

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
smchris
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Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Dear all

I'm hoping someone can help me diagnose slightly sick hydraulics on a Jan 61 FSM fitted with a front loader supplied off the Aux. service plate.

The symptoms are that, sometimes, the loader arms refuse to raise. But dipping the control lever (to drop, rather than raise) brings them back to life and they begin responding again. It feels like something is sticking, and the "drop" dislodges it.

The second symptom concerns the lift arms. These also, occasionally, won't immediately lift. I have to admit that I've got heavy, half-tonne topper on there, but normally it raises this without problem. Again, a dip of the lever and they will usually then come up.

The final symptom is that as soon as the tractor is stopped, or the pump disengaged (live clutch right down) the lift arms start to drop under the weight. This suggests a leak to me.

I fully suspect there's more than one thing wrong; it's an elderly machine and I suspect the hydraulics are all original and worn. But where, and how, should I begin my investigation to track down the origin of the problem?

I've done trivial things - like change and check the oil level in the back when I refurbed the engine after I bought the tractor. I also, at the same time, thoroughly cleaned the intake strainer, which was so clogged I'm surprised the hydraulics worked.

Thanks for your guidance.

Chris

John b
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by John b »

Hi Chris, sounds like you may have to remove the top cover to investgate. There is a service kit available for doing it containing o rings and seals, if it doesn't have the top cover gasket you will need one. It could be something as simple as an o ring split but without getting the top off you can't tell. Sandy will be on here later, he is the chap to talk to and he can post up all the relevant diagrams and manuals for you
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

What relief valve do you have? If it's the early one (with a short bolt head) this is expected, as the sudden shock can cause the valve to lift, meaning you have to lower the lever to get it to work again (the valve is set to 2500 psi, but once lifted, 300 psi is enough to stop it seating again). As for the arms you'll need to see if they come down with the aux. service valve pulled out, if they do, the leak is associated with thepiston seal area, if they don't but the loader does it can be the control valve area. If the check valve leaks you'll notice a slowing in the descent when in gear, and you'll struggle to get out of gear too in that situation. Here's the manual:
http://www.fordson.se/6A_Hydraul_Suplem ... 01-024.pdf
http://www.fordson.se/6B_Hydraul_Suplem ... 25-050.pdf
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Thanks, both, for the prompt replies.

Sandy, how do I know what relief valve I have? Can you tell me what to look for please?

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

You'll see it in the manual, the bolt head on the old one is much shorter (1/4") than the new one (1 1/2"). If yours is a 61 it will probably have the old one, but there are new ones fitted to tractors with loaders in particular made before the new one appeared in 63.
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Thanks. I've found the reference in the diagram. I'll take a look at the tractor over the weekend and report back.

The loader does drop too, but there could be more than one leak.

What is the correct O-ring service pack. I am nervous about buying something cheap and nasty that doesn't have what I need...

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

Your best bet is an extensive o-ring kit, where you're more likely to find appropriate sizes, if you find a Super Major kit it should fit but be careful as many aftermarket parts aren't quite right.
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Billy26F5 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:30 pm
...if you find a Super Major kit it should fit but be careful as many aftermarket parts aren't quite right.
Sandy
That's what I'm worried about; can anyone recommend a reputable and reliable supplier or part id?

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

I can't suggest any supplier, as we haven't fixed our hydraulics yet. The main problem with aftermarket parts is that they're often made to the wrong design, meaning they don't fit or look wrong.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by shepp »

As Sandy says the issue is probably down to the early type 2 stage relief valve still being fitted. You can retrofit the later single stage type, it simply screws in after removing the old valve, only the later type appears to be available now from the parts suppliers. The new type was introduced just prior to the New Performance tractor, it was billed in NP advertising as "....the new sustained lift hydraulics....", a single stage type was also fitted to the NP Super Dexta and the blue/grey Dexta at the same time.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

shepp wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:40 pm
As Sandy says the issue is probably down to the early type 2 stage relief valve still being fitted. You can retrofit the later single stage type, it simply screws in after removing the old valve, only the later type appears to be available now from the parts suppliers. The new type was introduced just prior to the New Performance tractor, it was billed in NP advertising as "....the new sustained lift hydraulics....", a single stage type was also fitted to the NP Super Dexta and the blue/grey Dexta at the same time.
Thank you; that's very useful. So I don't go down the wrong path entirely, can you please tell me what I am supposed to be buying?!

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

A single stage hydraulic pressure relief valve for a Super Major or Dexta or Super Dexta. A scrapy could well be your best bet.
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Sandy

Is this the right part:

https://old20tractorparts.com/power-maj ... 12056.html

Chris

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

It's not the right valve, check the manual to see what the valve should look like.
http://www.fordson.se/6B_Hydraul_Suplem ... 25-050.pdf page 40, fig 50, current type.
You've come across a typical case of a part that is sold as something else here, many other aftermarket parts are like this.
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Thanks; glad I checked. I did look at the manual, and the part offered did not look entirely like what is in the pictures, hence I was concerned.

I am struggling, though, to find anyone selling one of the "right" parts - they all look like the one from the link I sent. Any suggestions?

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

You'll need to find a second hand one, a scrapy will probably be the best option.
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Emiel »

IMHO is the “current “ type replaced by the item which works also for the newer ford tractors. It fits and it has the right functionality. I would prefer to have this part new instead of an old one from a breaker.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

The part offered by Old 20 doesn't fit the earlier Ford worldwide series hydraulics either, there's no internal output for the excess oil. I can't find any new valve that's suitable.
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

Anyone on here got one / breaking a tractor that has one?

Emiel
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

According cnh the safety valve E1ADDN984 is replaced by 81717251.

This one is available under the new and old part no at malpas.

https://www.malpasonline.co.uk/itm/Hydr ... Valve/5602

For these gbp 17,40 I would test whether it will work or not.

Why do you think the internal output is needed? The oil will flow back in the sump anyway, doesn’t it? At least that is what I understand from the diagrams in the manuals.

I’m trying to learn how it exactly is, might come a day I need to know it exactly
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

The tapped hole has the "bolt head" external, so the output would be not just wasting oil but dangerous, as the oil would come out at 2500 psi and 5 gallons per minute.
Image
This is a clear case of a part that is not suitable no matter what its manufacturer says.
Sandy
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smchris
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by smchris »

I am very surprised that a) the part in question appears to be so hard to source and b) if what Sandy's saying is true, the replacement part will just vent the oil at high pressure (and possibly temperature).

Sandy - have you come across one of these replacements and investigated to check it's flawed in the way you say, or is this just your supposition? If it is dodgy, surely that's quite negligent of the makers to sell something like that?

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

I'm only saying this from what you see listed and knowing how the valve is mounted (our ones are fine for our purposes, as we have the late kind and we don't have a loader); they're also selling it for Major and Power Major hydraulics, that have a completely different relief valve with no thread, as it's internal and held by plates and separate bolts. Since discovering aftermarket parts I have repeatedly been amazed to what extent parts can be wrong, and how they're very often sold as something else. Agriline had a bearing that was supposed to be a front auxiliary shaft bearing (size RLS7, an imperial bearing) listed as Agriline part no. 9570, it was loose on the shaft and tight on the block and it turned out they had approximated the imperial sizes to millimeters! We eventually found the right bearing elsewhere, but the scar on the block will never dissappear.
Sandy
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liam
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by liam »

Hi everyone,

The valve you see for sale screws into the end of the lift cylinder under the top cover. The relief valve that you need can not be got new. You will have to get a second hand one.

Liam

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major hydraulics

Post by Billy26F5 »

So it's actually the cylinder safety valve, a part not used by Major and Power Major hydraulics either. This valve is internal. It shouldn't be at all relevant for loader operations, as the loader circuit is totally separate.
Sandy
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