How do you know if the engine is healthy?

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
AdrianNPMajor
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

My NP Super left Dagenham in September 1963.
Nearly fifty years later I bought it to go ploughing.
First thing I did after acquiring it was to rebuild the engine. Didn't give it a moment's thought. Wearing parts of a machine this old will be worn.
Also replaced wearing/failed parts elsewhere on tractor.
Result: basic, classic machine able to take on anything it was designed to do, and more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxaQlWlNVTw&t=38s



John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

Sounds perfect and not a puff of smoke, brilliant job!
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

That engine sounds like one cylinder is very slightly out, as I can clearly detect it even with full revs. I've found this to be normal with rebuilt engines which has brought me to the following conclusion: no rebuilt engine will ever perfom as well as the same engine did new, as the heat (and other things too) will cause distortions to all the parts (not serious but enough to make a difference in performance), which when running normally will just mean that that engine's parts are no longer interchangeable. When you do a rebuild (like Adrian's NP, or Super Billy, that isn't quite there yet) new parts that in theory are to the original design meet a used block and other important parts, these used parts will normally have suffered these very small changes, the result being that the engine will no longer run equally on all cylinders, normally with one noticeably (but only just) firing distinctively from the others giving rise to a less regular speed and a much higher tendancy to stall the engine when the load is on the limit, a smooth engine that does run equally on all cylinders can outperform one that doesn't in a situation like that. This is the only reason for which I belive that a good engine with original parts should be given extra special care to avoid needing to rebuild it and ensure it can run so smoothly you can't detect any cylinder firing different from any other (in time or power). I also think the engine should be got running and given a short ploughing session to see how it is when a newly bought tractor arrives.
I haven't yet worked out how to get videos on here, nor do I have a good video camera, but you will see what Billy sounds like for comparison if I do manage to do both of these things.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

Without having the injector pump serviced and re-calibrated (assuming the injectors are good) a rebuilt engine with an in-line pump may very well be slightly out on one or more cylinders. At least with a rotary pump there is only one pump so each injector gets the same amount of fuel delivered, whereas an inline pump has a separate pump for each injector. I have stripped Simms pumps where the rear crank bearing has needed replacing due to rust/wear, it may only be marginal but even a small amount of play would mean the rear delivery valve is pumping less fuel than the front one. There is also nothing to say that all the delivery valves wear at the same rate. I have seen many engine rebuilds (including ones i have done) and very rarely do the injector pumps get re-calibrated, not really so much of an issue with a rotary pump but i would say with an inline pump the engine will never be 100% even on all cylinders unless the pump is set to give even fuel delivery across all injectors. Just my thoughts
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

shepp
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by shepp »

Absolutely spot on John, and the other crucial factor is the PHASING of the pump. So many people overhaul their engines completely but then ignore the injection pump, believing that if the engine starts well and seems to run well then everything pump wise must be OK.

When these tractors and anything else with an inline pump (CAV, Simms etc) were in full time use it was standard servicing procedure to periodically remove the injection pump and have the calibration and phasing checked and re-set. Often this would be done if the engine was given a top end overhaul, or at periodic intervals such as every 5000 hours or 50,000 miles. As the pump wears in use not only the amount of fuel delivered to each cylinder can change and vary from cylinder to cylinder, but also the phasing can change so that the actual point of injection and the injection timing can vary from cylinder to cylinder, resulting in slightly uneven running and sometimes smoke.

In the early 1960's it cost about £5 to have a 4 cylinder pump recalibrated and phased, assuming no parts were required other than the side cover gasket. Be a bit more today (!), but well worth it, proper inline pump maintenance is essential.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

A clean engine will also run better, as dirt will massively accelerate wear and even damage parts, I feel we've learned the hard way with Super Billy. His pump was overhauled, and we hope he'll run reasonably well, but I don't think he'll run as well as he did when new (even with the injector pump calibrated and phased). Hoping to be running very soon now (update coming soon).
Sandy
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John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

I had several 1980s Audi 80 sports with the VW 1.8i engine over the years. Those engines, no matter how well they were rebuilt, never seemed to go as well as an untouched one. I had one with 180,000 miles on it and it was still quicker than my mates with a rebuilt engine. There was nothing obviously wrong with the engine, it just seemed to lack the original feel and zip, i met several owners who all said the same, they would only buy ones with good untouched engines. Just wish i'd kept them, they are now worth a fortune!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think aluminium parts suffer more, and many cars have aluminium heads and blocks, so they will definitely be more difficult to get to run smoothly. I always think an untouched engine is going to run better than a rebuilt one too, especially a well kept one.
Sandy
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Nickm
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Nickm »

Brings to mind another question...

Is it possible to tell if the engine has ever been rebuilt?

Without dismantling, I would imagine not. But I'm far from an expert.

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

With respect, you are asking if an engine is healthy.
First thing to look for is oil pressure. Should be 44psi on start-up, 41psi an hour into ploughing.
Second thing is to see clear exhaust shortly after start-up.
That's how they looked a few weeks into service.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJPvYF_yL8I

mathias1
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by mathias1 »

AdrianNPMajor wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:27 pm
With respect, you are asking if an engine is healthy.
First thing to look for is oil pressure. Should be 44psi on start-up, 41psi an hour into ploughing.
Second thing is to see clear exhaust shortly after start-up.
That's how they looked a few weeks into service.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJPvYF_yL8I
Hey Adrian,
Still havent got time to install my rebuilt engine. Hope to get to it by the end of the year.
Did you do some ploughing this year?
Fordson Super Major New Performance
County Super 4 built on the Fordson Super Major
Selene built on the Fordson Super Major New Performance with Silvant winch

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

Only a good unrebuilt engine will sound totally smooth, the original paint will tell you if bits have come off or not, giving you a clue as to what might have been changed. Once open casting codes and similar markings as well as the type of part will give a good indication of what's happened.
As Adrian says, any engine that can't keep full oil pressure on start-up is in urgent need of attention, I would consider it a non-runner, as lack of oil can be very destructive.
Sandy
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AdrianNPMajor
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Hi Mathias
Sadly not.
Farmer now uses Sumo cultivator pulled by JD. Major too slow and gets in the way.
Major relegated to operating my saw bench.
On the issue of rebuilding engines, back in the day local garages had wooden benches black with oil and covered in engine blocks in various states of dismantling. Lubricants, filters & engine design of that time meant that in-service engine rebuilds were commonplace, hence the official Ford workshop manual for the Major giving precise instructions on how it should be done.
Beauty of it is, the process is relatively easy, and you end up with a new engine.
Adrian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L_sH_mADJs

SvendH
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by SvendH »

Hi Adrian
What drive disc is on the injector pump?
Definatly a healthy sounding major in my opinion 👍😀

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

The fibre one is the original one (and the good one I think).
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by shepp »

Being a NP tractor it may have the multi-segmented one, which runs quieter than the earlier 4 segment one.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

The eight segment one is rubber, the silent one; as far as I know only used by Ford on six cylinder engines, over here many people had these fitted to four cylinder engines as they didn't like the noise of the fibre one. Nowadays there are plastic versions that fit the fibre one, that are not worth using I think. I much prefer the fibre one, anything else sounds wrong to me.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by shepp »

The change to the type of injection pump drive coupling was a deliberate move to reduce the amount of "rattle" from the coupling, and happened some time after the introduction of the minimec pump on the 4 and 6 cylinder engines in 1962. Two types of 8 segmented drive discs were used, one was 12 mm thick and one was 25 mm thick. I suppose it' s a case of horses for courses, the 4 segment fibre one was the correct and original fitting for vacuum governed pumps, the 8 segment one for most minimec pumps.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think I've seen more fibre couplings on 4 cylinder minimecs than rubber ones. We have both thicknesses of rubber couplings, but Super Billy has recovered the fibre one while reparing the injector pump (he had the thin one). I definitely think noise was also considered when getting the silent coupling. I can't say I've seen the early coupling on a 6 cylinder minimec though.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by shepp »

I thought I had a service letter that refers to the 8 segment drive disc, but not so. It did appear fairly late on in engine production, don't forget that the 6 cylinder 590E engine was continued to be assembled until 1967 and the 4 cylinder 592E engine until 1971, both in industrial specification and with industrial serial numbers. This was possible because casting of the heads had been transferred to Ford's Leamington foundry ( "FL" heads - "Ford Leamington") in late 1962/early 1963 and casting of the blocks had been farmed out to the Sterling Metals Foundry Ltd in March 1964, thus all castings were available from sources outside of the Dagenham foundry which was massively busy with castings for the new highly successful cars such as the Cortina, and with preparation for castings for the new 220, 330 and 360 " D" series truck engines and for the block and head castings for the new 6X tractors to he built at Basildon. Castings for other engines that were soon to be replaced were also transferred to the Leamingtoin foundry around 1962/1963 such as for the straight six petrol engines used in the Zephyr and Zodiac cars up to Mark 3 models and which were succeeded by the new V4 and V6 engines in the Mark 4 models.

Stuart Gibbard, in his Fordson Farming DVD, refers to a change in the injection pump coupling on the introduction of the Super Major that was designed to reduce the "rattle" from the pump. There was a change in April 1961 to the engine metal half of the coupling which occurred concurrent with the new timing gears, and the new auxiliary drive shaft (pump drive shaft) that had different machining and wider key grooves than the earlier shaft. However the same fibre 4 segment disc was used and I cannot see how the new half coupling could contribute to a reduction in "rattle", unless the wider keyways and stronger method of clamping the half coupling to the auxiliary drive shaft somehow helped with the issue.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

The gap in the adjuster part was moved from opposite the key to around 150º ahead and the clamp bolt was replaced by an Allen screw (from 1599502, at the same time that the timing gears were widened), this was short lived (I would think it failed to reduce the rattle as they were hoping), the original gap position and clamp bolt returning in March 1962. The keyway appears to have been widened from 1599502 as well. I am well aware that production of industrial and lorry engines was quite different, and that the silent coupling may well have appeared on 4 cylinder engines during the October 1964 to 1971, certainly Ebro engines picked it up from 1967 with the introduction of the Ebro 160. As far as 6 cylinder engines go as I said before I can't remember seing a minimec without the silent coupling, but I have seen far less 6 cylinder engines, and there could well be some with the early coupling. I will post some pics of both adjusters later.
I have to say we're very limited on Major service letters, we have plenty of the later Dexta ones. I've seen many changes in service letters overlooked in the repair manual supplements.
Sandy
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Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

Here are the pics of all couplings:
The original one (Billy's one).
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The narrow silent one (old from Super Billy, replaced with fibre one) and the 61-62 adjuster with allen screw (half Super Major).
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And the wide silent one (from the half Super Major, the pump flange and drive pad we've not seen, as we never got the pump).
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Sandy
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