How do you know if the engine is healthy?

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Nickm
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How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Nickm »

When I bought my 1961 super major, the thing that was very important was that it started well.

And it does.

I assumed up until now that this was a good indicator.
But I have read somewhere since that a fordson major engine will pretty well always start well, even if it's pretty knackered, which made me worry mine may not be as healthy as it seems to be.

I have read in a few places actually that a fordson major engine is a renowned good starter.
Why is that? I assume it's like any other diesel in that without air, fuel or good compression it won't start, or not easily anyway.

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

I think the designers just got it spot on. The combination of compression ratio, bore and stroke and simplicity have made it one of the most successful diesel engines for agricultural and industrial use ever. Even when worn and neglected they still manage to have enough compresssion to start, there are quite a few ways of telling if yours is tired though,
blue smoke while working- worn rings/bores
blue smoke on tickover- worn valve guides
smoke/oil from dipstick tube and breather- worn rings/bores
Oil in water- head gasket /cracked head
water in oil- liner seals/head gasket/cracked head or block
overheating- head gasket/cracked or warped head/blocked radiator/thermostat
Knocking when warm- main or big end bearings worn
low oil pressure-worn engine
Feel free to correct me if you don't agree with any of them and add more that i haven't listed
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

leeroy
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by leeroy »

If you guys watched a video, between sights and sounds, would you have a good idea of condition of engine?
I'm like Nick- until I learned the FMDs are great starters, I assumed since she started so easy she must be okay.
1939 Ford 9N, 1952 8N, 1955 FMD, IH 340U, Ford 3600, Ford 2120, Valmet 646 Forwarder.

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

If it isn't blowing lots of blue smoke, chucking out oil or water, or knocking badly then i wouldn't panic, as long as your oil pressure light is working. If you get oil in the water, or worse, water in the oil then start to worry. But even that isn't the end of the world, everything has a fix. A local garage owner used one for years moving cars and engines around with the loader, it had no radiator on it and when it got hot he would just go for a cup of tea and let it cool down. It out lasted him!
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

There is an easy distinction, if your Major is an instant starter major problems are going to be as John says, if it starts but takes any longer than one or two turns the engine will need a full overhaul, remember the excess fuel device improves starting, but only a good enough engine will start instantly. Remember that some smoke can be the result of lots of light work with little or no use at full power, so always try to do some heavy ploughing before you consider your engine is fully assessed, a fairly poor battery should still be able to start the engine if it can deliver just enough for the one or two turns, remember that the battery is more likely to either start or not get past the first compression it meets with a good starter. Always ensure connections are clean and tight. Major's remain good starters in very cold conditions, so if you struggle at 14ºF (take longer than one or two turns) you probably don't have a good starter either.
As for the design I think it's easily ahead of other engines for two main reasons: superb starting, and almost infinite versitility (discussing about conversions earlier the only machine I can think of without a Major powered version is the aircraft, almost all other imaginable machine has a Major based version, some of which, like JCB's are an invention on a Major). The percentage of common parts with the spark ignition engines is also something very well done I think, easily pushing sales of the diesel engines by the £50 difference as a result of using so few parts for the three engines and the other two things I just mentioned.

What a spectacular Major John. If there's low oil pressure (below 30 psi hot) don't run it until you've sorted it.
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John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

I think when people say Majors are good starters they mean they will start on the key (or lever) and are comparing them to alot of other diesels of that era, like the 4 cylinder Massey 35. As Sandy says there is a big difference between one that starts and a good starter. A simple oil and filter change (mineral oil) can make a big difference to how a Major engine runs, if the old oil is water thin it will find its way past the rings and valve stems alot easier and give very poor lubrication between moving surfaces
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

John b wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:44 pm
I think when people say Majors are good starters they mean they will start on the key (or lever) and are comparing them to alot of other diesels of that era, like the 4 cylinder Massey 35.
The Dexta is not that good either, the Perkins (like the F3 and Super F3.152) MF 35 would be similar to the Dexta.
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John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

The 4 cylinder 35s were particularly bad, but apparently drilling the head and adding Land Rover glow plugs will get them going. Skimming the head and using a thinner head gasket to raise the compression also helps
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Emiel
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Most diesels back then were indirect injection engines. The major is a direct injection. I don’t think it’s fair to compare these two technologies for starting performance.

Next to the Ford(sons) I’ve grown up with Hanomag tractors. The hanomags always need at least 60 secs of preheating otherwise no start at all. They won’t start as instantly but certainly have their own benefits. They use the indirect injection principle.

From parts availability and price level for parts compared to German tractors it’s not a big problem your Ford engine is worn. It’s easy to rebuild, even with basic tools and skills you can get good results.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

Hi Emiel, i agree with you about being an unfair comparison, my point was that when people say Majors were good starters they are comparing them to other diesels of the time, but just because they start easily compared to indirect injection it doesn't mean that the engine is in good condition
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Emiel
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Emiel »

John b wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:52 pm
Hi Emiel, i agree with you about being an unfair comparison, my point was that when people say Majors were good starters they are comparing them to other diesels of the time, but just because they start easily compared to indirect injection it doesn't mean that the engine is in good condition
John
Hi,

You’re absolutely right.

And these fords really start well. Was preparing the clayson for this years harvest some weeks ago. Last year it was barley, this year wheat. That means it hadn’t run for over a year. I put a battery on it, open throttle and within half a Rev it is alive. My favourite engine type these fords, no doubt.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

I used to drive a Clayson 1530 in the 80s, i think it had a Deutz engine. The farm next door had a Ransomes 801, that had a Major engine and it's now rotting away in a wood
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

When we first got Super Billy started he hadn't been run for ages, from what I was told (I wasn't there) it was push the starter and he reved way up (the diaphragm and damping valve needed changing), and to spite the no. 1 big end being quite bad enough already! In winter. Mr MacGregor feels the cold a fair bit, Billy ignores it altogether. I would like to see a modern engine in really cold weather start without any heating or controlled ether (like the P6 E27N) and cranking at 200 rpm, and see how it compared with a Major. Another advantage with a Major is that if your battery is dud and you have a belt pulley you can start it with a rope (you have to be pretty strong for that!).
Sandy
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Nickm
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Nickm »

Thanks for the replies.

I'm pleased to say that I don't think there's any trace of oil or water anywhere they shouldn't be on mine.

It doesn't smoke most of the time at all.
I used it for the first time last week to pasture top about 2 acres. ( That's bush hogging in the US I think).
It's a large 1.8m topper. And parts of the 2 acres was quite thick with stuff. It did smoke a little on occasion, and it did use a little coolant. But it was 32 degrees that day.

Otherwise it starts well. I don't have to open the throttle at all or use the button near the Simms pump. And it starts straight away with no smoke.

I like stories like the bloke who ran his without the radiator and went to have a cup of tea to let it cool down. Stops me worrying about minor things I may have done or not done.

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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

At 32ºC any engine will use coolant, it's a pretty high temperature. A bit of black smoke at full power is expected (but only a bit).
Sandy
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Nickm
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Nickm »

It's good to know that fordsons have such good engines.

It still surprises me every time I turn the key and the engine starts straight away.
My other tractor is a mf 135 approx 1970, that was left here in the barn when we bought the house. It's in good condition in many ways, but is very hard to start. Lots of heat and at least 10 seconds of cranking.
Then when it does start, I have to stand at least 15 feet away for 10 minutes or so, waiting for it to stop smoking.

shepp
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by shepp »

The original Major engine with the vacuum governed injection pump started so well for two reasons. Firstly it was direct injection with very little compression heat loss to surrounding surfaces during cranking. Secondly when the engine stops the vacuum governor spring moves the pump control rack to maximum fuelling position, so that when the starter is pressed again maximum fuel is delivered (short of excess fuel) for the start resulting in easy starting, then when the engine starts the governor diaphragm moves against the spring pressure to move the fuel rack to running position.
I have always found that engines with the vacuum governor start just that bit better than engines with the minimec pump, and a vacuum governed engine in good condition will require the excess fuel button only in the most extreme cold temperatures.

Regarding the MF 135, they are direct injection and as good starters as the Major if in good condition and will start first turn normally, only requiring use of the thermostart pre-heater in extreme cold conditions. The engine in your 135 must be well worn if it takes more than a couple of turns to start. In fact the 135 is equally legendary with the Major for starting and reliability.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

Sounds like the MF is either low on compression or needs the injectors sorting. The smoke is very likely to be unburned fuel, meaning the injectors aren't atomizing it properly or injecting too much, or the compression isn't high enough to combust it properly. Or a combination of both. I think th MF is indirect injection, so it will never start as well as a Major with a good engine
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

I was wrong, they are direct injection, thanks Shepp!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

Billy26F5 wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:43 pm
In winter Mr. MacGregor feels the cold a fair bit, Billy ignores it altogether.
Mr. MacGregor is direct injection and has "start pilot", he still notices the cold, and has good parts as they were checked when we got him. In equal temperature Billy starts just as well as in summer, even with a poor battery. The MF 135 can't be started with a belt pulley, as you don't get the straight drive the Major has in high.
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shepp
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by shepp »

Neighbours bought a new Major diesel in 1952, one of the first diesel tractors in the area. It did a fair bit of work and was always carefully used and properly maintained, and when it was traded in for a new tractor in 1966 it was still as delivered new - original tyres, original big square battery. In the last couple of years the battery would turn and start the tractor after it had run for a few minutes, but after overnight parking there was no chance of even a half turn. However, with someone on the starting handle and someone on the starter lever that half turn needed to start the engine first thing in the morning was always achieved. A testament to the engine design and the build quality of the battery! ! - 12 years of good service and the final 2 years with assistance is pretty well unheard of today, although I do have some Varta batteries still performing well at 9 years old.

To be completely impartial, you cannot knock the MF 135, it stands fair and square with the Major as one of the best tractors ever built.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

John b
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by John b »

Worked on a farm in the 80s with 2 new ish John Deere 2130s and a 1972 Leyland 253 with the Perkins AD3 engine. If the temperature dropped a few degrees below freezing the JDs wouldn't start, even though they were kept in the barn, but the old faithful Leyland never failed to start and lived outside all its life
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

Davie's current battery is ten years old, but if you see the battery thread (viewtopic.php?p=58428#p58428) you'll see what Billy is using now. I would love to find an original one and try and revive it. Early this year Billy was managing on a 300A Renault 4 battery, which has also lasted well and is still in use. Our best battery that we bought useable was Kenny's one, that until it died would always start him after ages with no charge at all, and it even had to bleed him twice! Although it hasn't passed any test yet, our most punished battery (from the half Super Major) is now reading 12.3V after sitting for a few days, having been at 11.5V when we took it off the charger.

The MF 135 doesn't have something the Major does have: an almost infinite number of conversions, in the Allan T. Condie Major book he actually says that Perkins suffered badly from the success of the Major engine.
Sandy
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Nickm
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Nickm »

I do intend to have a go at fixing the 135. But it's low priority at the moment.

And I partly bought the FSM because at £900 I thought it may well be not much more for a fully working (except the locked differential - now fixed for almost £0) large tractor than it might be to fix the mf135.
Especially because I would struggle to fix engine problems I think. Unless it is only leaky injectors.
Which is the first thing I'll try when I get around to it.

Sandy, how many fordsons do you have?

Billy26F5
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Re: How do you know if the engine is healthy?

Post by Billy26F5 »

Three and a half, only two running as we speak (Billy and Davie), we're hoping to have Super Billy going very soon, the half Super Major we hope we can turn in to a Roadless six some time, but that's a long way away.
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If you look thruogh my posts you'll find plenty of info on Billy and Davie, much less of the other two but I'll get there some day!
Sandy
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